What is a miracle?

[Ghel]

Your dreams are about what you do during the day?

No, my dreams are variations of what I think about during the day. Which is never boring.

I like to think that people dream different things, and that not one person's dreams can be compared to another ...

Then why call your dreams precognition?

[Sage Blackthorn]

Hello Everyone,

I'm rather new to this forum, but I thought I would toss my thoughts on "miracles" out. I find the world to be a wholely amazing place all by itself. That life exists at all, to me, is a miracle. That life has persisted to exist through ice ages, floods, meteorite impacts, volcanos, rising pollution levels, over population.....all the myriad natural and man-made disasters that plague out little planet....that to me is a miracle. That I was born at all, I consider a miracle. (the only reference I can cite for this feeling is, I'm sorry to say, Monty Python's "Galaxy" song. But it really does illustrate what I mean. That life should exist at all is amazing.)

Now, in one of the earlier posts someone mentioned reincarnation. In a sense, I find reincarnation an absolute fact, but I have my own definition for it. As the law of conversation of matter and energy states that matter cannot be created from nothing, or destroyed and become nothing, it can only be converted to either energy or another form of matter. So, in my opinion when a person dies the matter that makes up their body decomposes, freeing up compounds and molecules that are then free to be recombined into a new form. An excellant example of this would be a man who dies and it buried at the base of a tree who's roots grow into the coffin. (There are a number of incidents of this happening in older graves where sealed caskets were not used). As the body decomposes, the calcium, phosphorus, nitrogen and other compounds are absorbed by the tree and made a part of it's structure. In essense, the body of the man has become a part of the tree.

What happens to our consciousness after we die, I haven't a clue. But the thought that this body of mine might someday become a tree, who's fruit feeds a sparrow, who is caught by a fox, that lays down to die in a meadow and who's body breaks down to feed the grasses, that feed a cow, that feeds a person....in essence making me part of that person in 100 or more years..... I find that strangely comforting to know that the protons, neutrons, and electrons of my body are for all intents and purposes, immortal and will go on until the end of time. If some small part of my current consciousness tags along for the ride, well, that's so much the better but I'm not counting on it.

And I will say that I do not think there is anything "Paranormal" or "Supernatural" in the universe. There is only the Normal and the Natural that we just haven't learned to understand or explain yet. I hope that things we consider spooky now become understandable as our knowledge grows of how the universe works.

I'll shut up for a bit now.

[Hobbs]

Then why call your dreams precognition?

That's still a variation of a dream sequence...no one, to my knowledge, has dreams of my personal future. If they did, it'd be like some weird Future Diary.


Welcome Sage. Love your name.

[Sage Blackthorn]

Welcome Sage. Love your name.

Thank you, I use to go by Kidd, but when I turned 18 I figured I couldn't rightly call myself a kid anymore. So I got a book on the folklore of names to pick a new one. Being aware that I was young and stupid at the time, I wanted a name that was traditionally suppose to bring wisdom into one's life, hence "Sage". And at the time I was studying martial arts and wanted a name representative of that. "Blackthorn" was listen as a name with strong connotations of defense as Sheilds were once made of Blackthorn wood.

Put 'em together, and you have Sage Blackthorn, The Wise Defender (or Warrior). Over the years I the wisdom I've gained is that more often than not, people don't want to be defended, they resent it and they want to fight their own fights. So I dialed it back and just started offering advice based on my studies and experiences. So just Sage will be fine.

[Ghel]

Monty Python's "Galaxy" song

I love you! Um, er, platonically, that is.

If some small part of my current consciousness tags along for the ride, well, that's so much the better but I'm not counting on it.

I think your definition of reincarnation is a great metaphor for the interconnectedness of life. I think we're on the same page with consciousness, too. I would phrase it as wishful thinking.

And I will say that I do not think there is anything "Paranormal" or "Supernatural" in the universe. There is only the Normal and the Natural that we just haven't learned to understand or explain yet. I hope that things we consider spooky now become understandable as our knowledge grows of how the universe works.

This sums up my view of things, as well. It's the reason I don't believe in miracles. It seems unlikely to me that there is anything that will forever be beyond human understanding. Given enough time, I think we'll figure out everything about the universe (and multi-verse, if such a thing exists).

I'll shut up for a bit now.

No, please don't. Your comments are quite welcome!

[Hobbs]

I think your definition of reincarnation is a great metaphor for the interconnectedness of life. I think we're on the same page with consciousness, too. I would phrase it as wishful thinking.

What do you mean by the interconnectedness of life? Can you explain that further?

[Sage Blackthorn]

I love you! Um, er, platonically, that is.

I've been thinking that very same phrase more than once as I've been reading through some of the older threads lately. I very rarely find myself feeling comfortable when I first arrive at a new forum. Even more rare is to see posts that read as if they were plucked directly from my very own thoughts on a subject. The only downside is I find that I really have very little to contribute. I keep thinking to myself, thus far at any rate, "My gods, they've already said everything I normally would have!"

I think your definition of reincarnation is a great metaphor for the interconnectedness of life. I think we're on the same page with consciousness, too. I would phrase it as wishful thinking.

It's not really my definition, to tell the truth. I first heard it in the book "The Story Of B" by Daniel Quinn and I found I liked it and agreed with it.

This sums up my view of things, as well. It's the reason I don't believe in miracles. It seems unlikely to me that there is anything that will forever be beyond human understanding. Given enough time, I think we'll figure out everything about the universe (and multi-verse, if such a thing exists).

Oh don't get me wrong, I find a great deal of miraculous occurances happen on a daily basis from my point of view. I think it's amazing that civilization hasn't come crashing down around my ears already for one thing. I'm still undecided as to whether we'd all be better off if it did or not.....although the more I see of the insanity that is civilization the more I lean towards thinking it's collapse would be for the better.

I think it's a miracle when I walk out my door this evening and find no less than 6 Raccoons in the tree in my front yard (1 Adult, 5 adolescents) and a very affectionate little orange tomcat who's about be turned into a mince meat by said Raccoons only to narrowly escape by my intervention. The cat had to belong to someone, since it allowed me to pick it up and take it into the house and then shoo the Raccoons away. Obviously not a street cat or a feral cat, as it was heading into trouble. It's coat was clean and soft, so it's been groomed recently Judging from the markings, orange stripes down it's back and orange spots on its flanks it looked like a show breed. Well taken care of and no fear of a strange human at all. Any later and there would've been a dead cat on my front porch.

Every day is full of miracles.....if you know where and how to look for them. It's all a matter of one's point of view. We can either choose to see the universe as a bland, boring, endless mechanical process.....or we can look at it as an amazing and beautiful work of art.

[Hobbs]

Every day is full of miracles.....if you know where and how to look for them. It's all a matter of one's point of view. We can either choose to see the universe as a bland, boring, endless mechanical process.....or we can look at it as an amazing and beautiful work of art.

Reminds me of something I saw in a show once, "The world is not beautiful; and that makes it beautiful."

[HYHYBT]

It's coat was clean and soft, so it's been groomed recently.

Off-topic, but don't cats normally take care of that themselves anyway? Mine always have been, anyway: self-cleaning unless there is something wrong.

[Sage Blackthorn]

Off-topic, but don't cats normally take care of that themselves anyway? Mine always have been, anyway: self-cleaning unless there is something wrong.

For the most part, yes, cats tend to groom themselves pretty regularly. However there is a detectable difference between a street cat and a house cat. Street cats fur doesn't smell of shampoo and is usually not as soft as that of a house cat that's being brushed and groomed. They also tend to be wary of people, they will be cautious, skiddish. House cats tend to be more acclimated to people, and this one overly affectionate, showing no fear of me at all. It was obvious that it had been treated well and raised by humans. Most street cats that survive for very long also tend to be muscular, usually having at least one or more scars from fighting for territory with other cats.

From everything I observed, this was a domestic house cat that got out of it's house and was ill-suited to survival on the streets with other cats, feral dogs, and the aforementioned Raccoons. He's very lucky I found his when I did.

[HYHYBT]

Oh, I understand knowing the difference...

[BlaqueKatt]

I've been thinking that very same phrase more than once as I've been reading through some of the older threads lately. I very rarely find myself feeling comfortable when I first arrive at a new forum.

told ya!

Even more rare is to see posts that read as if they were plucked directly from my very own thoughts on a subject.

kinda makes ya wonder if there are only a specific number of permutations the human brain can go through, so eventually they duplicate(especially in thought process)....but maybe I'm just a bit more strange that I think that way.....

[Sage Blackthorn]

Oh, I understand knowing the difference...

So far there's been no sign of the little orange cat (I've decided to call him Milo after the similar looking cat from the movie "Milo and Otis".) Of the other neighborhood cats, there's two "tuxedo" cats that hang out on a regular basis. "Adolf", named for the black patch on the front of his white muzzle. And "Bandit", so named for the perfect black mask that cover the top of his head (kinda looks like Batman with the ears, actually. But "Bat-Cat" or "Cat-Man" just didn't seem to suit the little fur ball.)

kinda makes ya wonder if there are only a specific number of permutations the human brain can go through, so eventually they duplicate(especially in thought process)....but maybe I'm just a bit more strange that I think that way.....

I think it's more likely that people who think similarly tend to group together into "tribes". It's instinct to hang out where you feel comfortable. But the larger society becomes, the harder it is to find a group that you feel really comfortable with. One might wander for years without every finding such a group, so they "settle" for a group that is 50% or more comfortable and they can ignore or tolerate the rest that makes them uncomfortable.

[Ghel]

What do you mean by the interconnectedness of life?

All life on Earth has one thing in common: DNA. By comparing the DNA in our cells to that of other creatures, we can see how closely related we are. The most recent common ancestor between humans and chimpanzees was not too long ago, evolutionarily speaking. The most common ancestors between us and orangutans was a little farther back, and the most recent common ancestor between us and the fly amanita mushroom even farther. But make no mistake, we are related.

Every day is full of miracles.....if you know where and how to look for them.

If everyday events are miracles, then you're devaluing the meaning of the word "miracle." Rescuing a cat is a noble thing to do, but it's not incredibly unlikely nor a violation of the laws of physics. Why call it a miracle?

Even going back to Kimmik's story, I don't see that as a miracle. I'm glad that she got what she wanted, but I'm sorry that she had to go through so much grief to get there. But doctors being wrong doesn't make her pregnancy a miracle.

We can either choose to see the universe as a bland, boring, endless mechanical process.....or we can look at it as an amazing and beautiful work of art.

I think this is a false dichotomy. We can understand what makes the sunlight appear red at "sunset" and still marvel at the beauty of it. As they say, beauty is in the eye of the beholder.

But the larger society becomes, the harder it is to find a group that you feel really comfortable with. One might wander for years without every finding such a group, so they "settle" for a group that is 50% or more comfortable and they can ignore or tolerate the rest that makes them uncomfortable.

I think this is less true than is was in the past. Before modern advances in travel and communications, a person was generally stuck with the community he or she was born into. Now, scattered individuals separated by vast distances can communicate quickly and easily, thus forming communities that wouldn't have been possible before the Internet Age.

[Hobbs]

Even going back to Kimmik's story, I don't see that as a miracle. I'm glad that she got what she wanted, but I'm sorry that she had to go through so much grief to get there. But doctors being wrong doesn't make her pregnancy a miracle.

Just goes to prove that, no matter what, you'd never accept a miracle, so why do you bother trying to understand them? From my previous posts I culled this, "The miracle may go beyond the possibilities of nature either in the substance of the fact or in the subject,

or only in the way it occurs

."

Kimmik's account certainly was beyond the possibilities of nature. That is attestable as she was tested by skilled, qualified doctors. It's not like she was going to some country bumpkin doctor. As Kimmik states, "...a shit ton of California top doctors..."

Kimmik, I apologize for using your account as an arguing point.