What is a miracle?

[Ipecac Drano]

Andara, please be as specific as possible when explaining what you believe. It's hard to understand what people mean when they use vague words like "spiritual." Also, please be prepared to answer why you believe what you believe.

Sadly, the vagueness is what religious people have to "support" their arguments or they misinterpret the vagueness as one of the ways of God.

[Ghel]

I know. I'm just trying to put forth my desired level of evidence before-hand. As they say, the devil's in the details.

[Ipecac Drano]

I suspected that you knew, but I had posted that for those who believe didn't realize how miracles work.

[Andara Bledin]

Ah. I had mistaken a thread looking for reasons to be insulting for one that was genuinely interested in answers.

My mistake.

^-.-^

[Ipecac Drano]

Ah. I had mistaken a thread looking for reasons to be insulting for one that was genuinely interested in answers.

My mistake.

^-.-^

Then there should be no problem in outlining what is a genuine miracle and what is something that is equally good but not of a god's (or goddess's) handiwork, should there?

[Ghel]

...a thread looking for reasons to be insulting ...

Andara, which part do you consider insulting? That I was asking for details about what you believe? That I was asking for a reason? For evidence? For an avoidance of vague words?

Or perhaps what Ipecac said about vagueness being what (I would say most) religious people have to support their arguments. Well, if we're wrong, show us. Give us the specifics. Give us the details. Give us the evidence and/or reasons.

If you can't do that, then why should anyone agree with you?

[Ipecac Drano]

Well, I was hoping that we'd finally be told how to tell the difference between a miracle and a coincidence via a believer of miracles.


Until it can be tested as such, a miracle will only match the criteria of a coincidence that's been cherry picked and relabeled.

[Ghel]

Threads like this are a last-ditch effort in my quest to find out if I'm wrong. If there is a god, I want to know. If there are miracles, I want to know. The problem I keep having, though, is that the definitions I'm given for "god" and "miracle" are vague, inconsistent, self-contradictory, or illogical. And the reasons I'm given for believing in them are similarly vague, contradictory, or unsupported. I'm frequently told I have to believe before I can believe.

I'm almost to the point where I think I'll never be convinced that a god exists. The chances are so slim they're approaching zero. I'm starting to wonder why I waste my time looking. As far as I can tell, if there is a god, he doesn't care whether I believe in him.

What good is a god, anyway? Science has pretty well explained all the things that used to be attributed to God(s). There's nothing left for God to do but try to interfere with our sex lives.

[Ipecac Drano]

Threads like this are a last-ditch effort in my quest to find out if I'm wrong.

Threads like this are my only chance to get to hear what kind of verbal acrobatics apologists can dish out.

If there is a god, I want to know. If there are miracles, I want to know. The problem I keep having, though, is that the definitions I'm given for "god" and "miracle" are vague, inconsistent, self-contradictory, or illogical. And the reasons I'm given for believing in them are similarly vague, contradictory, or unsupported. I'm frequently told I have to believe before I can believe.

I even had a guy who even believes in Young Earth Creationism throw in the towel and tell me that all I have to do is believe. (Of course, it wasn't okay to believe in the Easter Bunny, as he rolled his eyes at that one.)

I'm almost to the point where I think I'll never be convinced that a god exists. The chances are so slim they're approaching zero. I'm starting to wonder why I waste my time looking. As far as I can tell, if there is a god, he doesn't care whether I believe in him.

You're not there, yet? Need any help?


Seriously, I still have an open mind about the existence of a Supreme Being (not the kind with sour cream and tomatoes), but everytime someone comes up with "proof", it's just a redressing of an old argument.

What good is a god, anyway? Science has pretty well explained all the things that used to be attributed to God(s).

A god is for those who can't cope with what science reveals to them. To some, they'd rather hear, "God will watch over her," to, "She's dead and there's nothing anyone can do about it." If I were a religious guy, I'd find comfort in knowing that My God would burn the Mexican restaurant down for screwing up my tacos. But, alas, I must settle with not returning there and looking through the newspaper on the fire call section.

There's nothing left for God to do but try to interfere with our sex lives.

I'm sure that his minions will find other things for him to do.

[Sage Blackthorn]

Ghel, I'm curious as to why a self-proclaimed "atheist skeptic" would be making last ditch searches for evidence that "God" exists in the first place?

[Wingates_Hellsing]

Because skepticism and an interest in learning are not mutually exclusive. Some people are skeptical even of things they want to be true, not that I'm saying this is the case, but there's plenty of legitimate reasons to be proactive about proving things.

[Ipecac Drano]

Ghel, I'm curious as to why a self-proclaimed "atheist skeptic" would be making last ditch searches for evidence that "God" exists in the first place?

I know that you were speaking to Ghel and I do not pretend to be her voice, but as a fellow skeptic, I'd like to say that one should not keep their mind 100% closed to an idea but somewhat open to consider new input, such as Ghel does.

This should not be confused with the cynic, where the mere existence of doubt is immediate cause for labeling an entire field as erroneous. If you try to engage a cynic about his/her beliefs, you'll usually receive some emotional and very close-minded arguments but little logic.

[Ghel]

Ghel, I'm curious as to why a self-proclaimed "atheist skeptic" would be making last ditch searches for evidence that "God" exists in the first place?

Because if there were a god, it would completely change how I view the universe. It would change the very nature of nature. Not to mention that, depending on which god it is, he may subject me to eternal torture if I don't believe in him.

Because skepticism and an interest in learning are not mutually exclusive.

Actually, skepticism and an interest in learning tend to go hand-in-hand. Unless you're talking about philosophical skepticism, but I'm not.

When I say I'm a skeptic, I mean this: When I'm told something, I doubt that it is true until I have sufficient evidence or a reasoned argument to support it. I may give some things provisional credit if they're similar enough to what I already accept as true or if they're unlikely to impact my day-to-day life. Still, my acceptance of any claim is provisional, since I can be convinced differently by further evidence or reasoned argument. I'm always weighing what I know against what I've learned previously, so that I can make sure my internal model of the world matches what really is.

Everyone is at least a little bit skeptical. Otherwise, they'd be taken in by every huckster and used car salesman that they meet.

[Ipecac Drano]

A while back, I was talking to a rabbi about God testing the faith of men. One of the things I mentioned was how some apologists claimed that fossils and other things discovered by science were either put here by The Devil or simply by God to test our faith. On the latter suggestion, the rabbi was quick to dismiss it by saying that God doesn't put down roadblocks on the path to knowing him, but clues.

After the conversation, I began to wonder that if God (or anybody else) wants us to know about him/them, why don't they just show up? It would be the easiest thing to do and any doubt would be removed.

[Andara Bledin]

I'm starting to wonder why I waste my time looking. As far as I can tell, if there is a god, he doesn't care whether I believe in him.

I've been wondering that for a couple of pages, myself.

The reason that all replies as regards religion are vague is that religion is subjective. The truth of God for me will not be the truth of God for the next person. The truth of God for you is that there probably isn't one.

For absolutists who will have nothing to do with that which cannot be tested and examined, religion has no place in your lives. And, by that measure, there are no such things as miracles because anything you can examine or explain, no matter how improbable, won't be a miracle in their eyes.

A god is for those who can't cope with what science reveals to them.

This is the sort of bullshit that makes people not bother with these sorts of threads.

Certainly, there are many, many people who need a God in order for them to face the day. So fucking what? What does it matter to you or anyone else what they need to believe in to keep on keeping on? The only time it should matter to anyone else is if those people try to impose their ideas on anyone else.

Science may not be a religion, but there sure are a hell of a lot of science evangelicals out there.

Because if there were a god, it would completely change how I view the universe. It would change the very nature of nature.

This, I don't get. Nature won't change. It is how it has always been and will continue to be so regardless of whether or not you have received sufficient proof in what would have always been there in the first place.

The only difference after that point will be you perception. Which leads back into my earlier comment.

I, personally, have always believed in God. Actually, my mother informs me that I used to hold conversations with him when I was 3 or 4. My family never went to church. As far as I know, my dad is completely atheistic (or utterly religiously apathetic, which is nearly the same thing), and my mom is generally Christian, although you'd have to talk to her about it specifically to ever know. Neither of us have anything in our daily lives that show any sort of religious affiliation. My boyfriend was actually surprised to learn I wasn't agnostic, and we've been living together for nearly a decade.

^-.-^