What is a miracle?

[Ghel]

A former co-worker's adopted son (now in his 40s) attempted suicide this week, by way of overdose on pain medications. He's been in a coma for 5 days now, and they were planning to do an EEG to check for brain activity. When asked what outcome they were expecting, his family said they were praying for a miracle.

That got me to thinking: what would I consider a miracle in this situation? Mere survival wouldn't be enough, since he would likely have brain damage. He would still have issues with depression and suicidal tendencies. His wife likely would still want a divorce (which may have been the metaphorical straw that broke the camel's back). He would still have back pain (for which he's had several surgeries, leading to wires and devices to stabilize his back and for which he was prescribed pain medication).

How much of this would have to be fixed to consider it a miracle? I don't have a good answer. So I ask each of you, what would you consider a miracle in this situation?

[Jack]

A miracle is that he comes out of it none the worse and somehow spontaneously fixes all his issues. Anything less is just a result of his chances. He might die, he might wake up retarded, he might be reasonably fine. None of them are miracles.

Though, since I don't believe in any deity, I'm not factoring divine intervention into "miracle", instead defining it as the fulfillment of the most unlikely and desired outcome.

[Hobbs]

Little to no brain damage, with the possibility of recovering a good percent of his functionality afterwards. A miracle doesn't necessarily have to be a fix-all. The depression and other issues were pre-existing conditions that aren't a direct part to his medical condition (coma). They're indirect influences.

Ghel, I thought your answer would be that the discussion is moot because there's no such things as miracles, from your previous arguments.

[Kimmik]

A miracle in that situation is a second chance. I attempted suicide and somehow survived.. while yes I do still suffer from depression, the pain of my disorders and the like. To me that was a miracle, because I got what not many do.. a second chance. I realized while though I spend most of the day in pain, suffer from severe depression and shit that it is the little shit that matters. Not if I can go out to clubs, do physical activities, and stuff.

I feel for your co-worker. It is never easy to let someone go by making the decision to pull the "plug" that is where they have to decide what kind of life their son would live if there is severe damage.

It would be a miracle if he pulls out with no brain damage, because the other stuff you listed as his problems in day to day life suck, but there is always hope.

[Jack]

Hmm, good point. I was going a bit out of scope there. I'm not really sure. Merriam-Webster's second definition of miracle (the first is about divine intervention) is "an extremely outstanding or unusual event . . ." so it really would depend on what we decide would be sufficiently outstanding or unusual to be a miracle instead of, what, luck? Coming through on slim chances? It's all so subjective. No concrete definitions of what a miracle is practically.

I could step through progressively better outcomes all day and still not know when to call it a miracle. I'm not the sort of person who can decide that something happened due to forces or circumstances not possible in the natural world so I'm not used to calling anything a miracle, really.

[Hobbs]

Found this on the Wiki article on the Congregation for the Causes of the Saints:

The miracle may go beyond the possibilities of nature either in the substance of the fact or in the subject, or only in the way it occurs. So three degrees of miracle are to be distinguished. The first degree is represented by resurrection from the dead (quoad substantiam). The second concerns the subject (quoad subiectum): the sickness of a person is judged incurable, in its course it can even have destroyed bones or vital organs; in this case not only is complete recovery noticed, but even wholesale reconstitution of the organs (restitutio in integrum). There is then a third degree (quoad modum): recovery from an illness, that treatment could only have achieved after a long period, happens instantaneously.

[Ghel]

The idea of a miracle I was using was the general Christian definition, which I know the guy's family was using: God's intervention on behalf of a believer, overcoming seemingly impossible odds to heal said believer. But as I've mentioned in other threads, even a complete recovery wouldn't necessarily convince me that the Christian God caused it.

There was no miracle in this situation. The EEG found no brain activity, and the family make what I'm sure was a heartwrenching decicion to take him off life support. He died within half an hour.

There's no good, no "bright side," in situations like this. It's tragic. I can only imagine how hard it must be for the fellow's family, especially knowing that he took his own life.

[Hobbs]

There's no good, no "bright side," in situations like this. It's tragic. I can only imagine how hard it must be for the fellow's family, especially knowing that he took his own life.

Yes it is tragic, but that doesn't mean there's no "bright side." Just because you have no feeling towards extra-material matters doesn't make it so. If he was Christian, like it appears he was, then he may find eternal peace that he could not find on Earth.

Before you begin on the "cruelty" of the Church against Suicides; the Church has recognized the importance of mental problems and other factors that contribute to suicide. Thus, a suicide is not necessarily destined for damnation.

[HYHYBT]

Even leaving that out, sometimes the "bright" side is just the less-dim one: he's no longer miserable and depressed, his wife no longer has to go through the trouble of divorcing him, etc.

[Talon]

Not to mention he's not going to remain in a persistent vegetative state for months if not years, leaving himself and his family in limbo with no end in sight. Now they can let him go and move on. Pick the alternative you dislike the least.

[Ghel]

Pick the alternative you dislike the least.

This exactly what I mean when I say there's no bright side. Granted that he's not suffering any more, but he's lost the only chance at life (that we know for sure) he'll ever get. His family will have to live with their grief and perhaps regret that they didn't get him the help he needed to overcome his depression.

The wake was last night. A coworker brought back one of those little cards they give out and let us all read it. It included a poem with sentiments like "remember me how I was during the good times" and "God brought me home." You know, the typical stuff you see at Christian funerals. It seems a strange twist, to me, that they would include a sort of "God ended my life so I could be with him" message when he ended his own life. It would be funny, if it wasn't so sad.

[Hobbs]

<snip>

Sigh...

God brought me home =/= God ended my life.

It simply means that God brought him into Eternal Life.

[Ghel]

The poem ends with "God wanted me now: He set me free." If that doesn't mean God ended his life on Earth, I don't know what it means.

Additionally, I know quite a bit about my former coworker's and her family's beliefs (I couldn't avoid hearing about it when she was still working here), and they consider everything to be part of "God's plan," which means they will probably view the man's death as a test of their faith, or something.

[Hyena Dandy]

part of "God's plan," which means they will probably view the man's death as a test of their faith, or something.

I hope not. You can't say that suicide is in God's plan, seeing as we've got this free will thing.

[Hobbs]

I hope not. You can't say that suicide is in God's plan, seeing as we've got this free will thing.

The poem ends with "God wanted me now: He set me free." If that doesn't mean God ended his life on Earth, I don't know what it means.

What's the poem, if I may ask? It's not a Psalm or anything, is it?

Also, technically there's nothing wrong with it. His suicide technically didn't go as planned, because it didn't kill him and sent him into a coma. The family's belief in God and mercy may have had more than a minor factor in their decision to remove him from life support, making his passing a part of God's plan. As God once said, "When you do things right; people won't be sure you've done anything at all."

In the Christian sense, God is omniscient, so while it may not be his plan, He knows what's going to happen. But as God answered when asked, "What if I do something different," He admits, "Then I don't know that."

PS: Is it odd that I find one of the best lessons about God in recent times is from Futurama?