What is a miracle?

[Ghel]

See, I agree with you. Even when I was a Christian, I didn't believe that God micromanaged the universe. But some Christians, such as the former coworker I mentioned, believe that "everything happens for a reason." Not just normal cause and effect, either. Events occur according to God's will, and if something tragic happens, it must be either a punishment from God or a requirement for some greater good. In the case of suicide, I bet they'll say that some greater good will come of it, if only a strengthening of their faith.

On the other hand, when I was Christian, I believed that if someone killed themselves, they went to Hell. Do not pass Go, do not collect eternal bliss.

[Hobbs]

On the other hand, when I was Christian, I believed that if someone killed themselves, they went to Hell. Do not pass Go, do not collect eternal bliss.

Why did you think that? :/

[Ghel]

Because that was what I was taught by my parents and grandparents. It only seemed natural, since they believed that the body was a temple to God, and that he made us in his image, that suicide was an affront to God, and that he would not allow you into his presence if you committed suicide.

I remember my mother (who was a Protestant of some sort before she married my dad) arguing with my grandmother (my father's mother) about various church teachings. My grandmother's church was Roman Catholic, but continued to hold on to older Catholic teachings long after the church abandoned them as barbaric. Now I realize how horrible many of those teachings were, but at the time, I was an impressionable child wanting approval from my family. It wasn't until I was in my teens that I began to question the faith I was raised with.

[Hobbs]

Now I realize how horrible many of those teachings were, but at the time, I was an impressionable child wanting approval from my family. It wasn't until I was in my teens that I began to question the faith I was raised with.

It's funny. We're relatively the same age, I think, but I was never exposed to those ideas, even from my grandparents. This is kind of wandering off-topic, but I think it's partially locational. That is, I usually hear about the type of things you talk about from people on the East Coast or up North. I mean, there are fundamentalists here too, but most of the uber-fundies I hear of aren't from the Southwest.

May I ask what made you question your faith? I'm mildly curious.

[Kimmik]

Ghel I am going to use me as an example.

My whole life I wanted nothing more to have a child of my own, I helped raise more then a handful. When I was told that I wouldn't have children so to help ease my sorrow I through myself into helping children where I could. I lead girl scouts and cub scouts, and I worked with a reading program in Idaho. But I still had the painful reality that I would never have children. I watched family members have child after child, some seeming to only want their children when they were worth something IE government help.

I watched as realitives had their children taken because they couldnt quit the needle. All the while praying that I would have a child of my own after all I was great with children. I would cry every time there was a news story about a parent hurting their child.

Fast forward to 2008... I was 34 had given up thinking I would ever have children... then I find out I was going to have a baby.. I was over come with joy... how ever that dec I went into early labor and long story short, by Jan of '09 I was faced with my biggest horror.

He wasn't going to get better, though he was a fighter, a bled on his brain sealed his fate. He was brain dead and we had to face the fact that the kindest thing and for us the right thing. I held my son as they took him off of the ventilator and I watched him die in my hands.

For me he was my miracle. After being told that I would never have children.. I had a beautiful baby boy... and even though he couldn't stay he proved a shit ton of California top doctors wrong. He also showed us that in the grand scheme of things it is all small stuff and that the smallest thing can make the biggest difference.He was due in April of 2009. Well His sister was conceived in April. She is now going on 9mo.

Miracles are not always what we think they are.

[Ghel]

May I ask what made you question your faith? I'm mildly curious.

Certainly. It's a story I'm willing to share. (I know there's been almost a week break since the last post to this thread, but real world vacation kept me away from my computer.) This is especially poignant, since my uncle reminded the whole family that it's been 19 years since my dad died. I don't know why he felt he needed to remind us all about it at this particular time, but since nearly everybody in the family mentioned hoping to see him again in heaven, I felt that I had to respond.

I miss my dad greatly. I think of him often. But his death caused me to doubt my faith. In the years following his death, I read the Bible critically for the first time. I investigated the claims made by the church, and the responses by non-believers. At first, I still believed, though I realized that the God I had been raised to believe in was logically impossible and internally inconsistent. Alarmed by the atrocities described in the Bible and perpetrated by the church, I looked for a different definition of “God.” I researched other gods and other beliefs. I found the same problems that I did with the Christian God - they didn't mesh with reality. For a few years, I labeled myself agnostic. I started reading books and blogs written by non-believers. I came across the proper definitions of agnostic (lacking knowledge) and atheist (lacking a belief in a god), and took on the label atheist.

To quote J.M. Straczynski, "As an atheist, I believe that all life is unspeakably precious, because it’s only here for a brief moment, a flare against the dark, and then it’s gone forever. No afterlives, no second chances, no backsies." I have no reason to think that any part of my dad continues to exist. All that remains of him is memories, pictures, and that part of me (and my brother) that is him. I would have liked to get to know my dad adult-to-adult, but I'll never know what might have been. I am who I am, in part, because of my father, and also, in part, because of his death.

[Hobbs]

Certainly. It's a story I'm willing to share. (I know there's been almost a week break since the last post to this thread, but real world vacation kept me away from my computer.) This is especially poignant, since my uncle reminded the whole family that it's been 19 years since my dad died. I don't know why he felt he needed to remind us all about it at this particular time, but since nearly everybody in the family mentioned hoping to see him again in heaven, I felt that I had to respond.

Wait, you replied this on his FB about missing his deceased brother? Wow.

Thanks for sharing btw. I've lost loved ones along the way (the closest two have been my maternal grandparents) but the experience renewed my faith. Also, my paternal grandfather (whom I've never met) I feel a spiritual connection with. Not just because he was in the Air Force (served 30 and retired MSGT) but because I..feel it, if that makes sense. I suppose it doesn't to someone who believes in merely material things...

Oops. By "material" I meant "not spiritual," not "materialistic" or anything like that.

[Ghel]

Wait, you replied this on his FB about missing his deceased brother? Wow.

Yeah. Maybe it was sucky of me, but I thought it was even more sucky of him to celebrate (or even make note of) the anniversary of my dad's death. I haven't talked to anybody on my dad's side of the family for years. This was the first message he'd ever sent me on FB. I thought it was only fair to let them know, in a relatively (no pun intended) nice way that I no longer believe what they do.

Also, my paternal grandfather (whom I've never met) I feel a spiritual connection with. <snip> because I..feel it, if that makes sense.

Actually, that does kind of make sense. I have felt that sort of "spiritual" connection with people before. However, I don't think that it suggests anything supernatural. We humans are empathetic beings. We live in communities. It's not surprising that we feel a connection to friends and family members. We also have a huge capacity for imagination, so it's not surprising that we extend that feeling of connection to people we haven't met (and, in cases such as books and movies, to people who might never have existed).

I frequently think about conversations long before they actually happen. Sometimes the conversation in my head is so real that I have a hard time remembering if the conversation actually happened or not. Other times, I am surpised by how different people's responses are from how I imagined them. It just goes to show that what happens in our minds does not necessarily mesh with reality.

[Hobbs]

Yeah. Maybe it was sucky of me, but I thought it was even more sucky of him to celebrate (or even make note of) the anniversary of my dad's death. I haven't talked to anybody on my dad's side of the family for years. This was the first message he'd ever sent me on FB. I thought it was only fair to let them know, in a relatively (no pun intended) nice way that I no longer believe what they do.

Why would it be bad to make note of his brother's death? I mean, lots of people visit graves on the anniversary of the death of a loved one...for people who served in the Armed Forces their graves are visited on Memorial Day, 4th of July etc. I don't think there's anything wrong in commemorating a passing. But then, not everyone feels like that I suppose.

<snip>

Pardon me, but I don't imagine my grandfather. He was a real person who existed, and such existence left a lasting impact on my life.

Oh, for a moment I thought you were saying you had an inate sense of precognition like I do.

[Ghel]

Why would it be bad to make note of his brother's death? I mean, lots of people visit graves on the anniversary of the death of a loved one...

I never understood this. Nothing that made that person who they were, nothing that matters, is in that coffin. I can understand looking at pictures, watching movies, reading something they wrote, or even talking to somebody else about that person's life. But talking about his death and speculating about his afterlife? I don't get it.

... an inate sense of precognition like I do.

Wow, you have precognitive abilities? If you can prove it, that might be a miracle! (Still wouldn't necessarily prove any god, though.)

[Kimmik]

I never understood this. Nothing that made that person who they were, nothing that matters, is in that coffin. I can understand looking at pictures, watching movies, reading something they wrote, or even talking to somebody else about that person's life. But talking about his death and speculating about his afterlife? I don't get it.

I was told as a young child, that the funeral was not for the dead but for those left behind. I refused to bury my son and had him cremated because I could not stand the thought of him being in the ground and having to leave him behind if I was forced to move. The grave really isn't for the departed but for those of us left behind. It is a place we can go to be "near" them. For some it is a spot for remembrance, some will sit and talk to the person, and some will light a candle.

[Hobbs]

<snip>

I don't take kindly to being patronized.

[Ghel]

It would be a lot easier to understand where you think you're being patronized if you quoted it.

If you're talking about my response to you saying that you have precognitive abilities, well, my response is the same as it would be to any other supernatural claims: "prove it."

[Hobbs]

If you're talking about my response to you saying that you have precognitive abilities, well, my response is the same as it would be to any other supernatural claims: "prove it."

No, because my dreams only happen rarely and cover topics no one but me or close family would know about. I can't believe how disrespectful you are.

[Ghel]

Respect has to be earned.

So, you have dreams about your family that seem to correspond to things that actually happen. Have you at least kept a journal of these dreams to see how many actually happen and how closely they correspond to actual events? Even if your precognition only applies to your family, if it's accurate and useful, you would have an ability that no one else has ever been able to demonstrate.

Unless you're counting the hits and forgetting the misses, but that would be hard to determine without a record of what you've foreseen.