The Burning Holy Books Saga

[Hobbs]

It's not like anyone helps us in natural disasters

Oh really?

Here's some countries that "didn't help" during Hurricane Katrina:

Afghanistan, Armenia, Austria, Bahrain, Belgium, Boznia and Herzegovina, Brunei, Cambodia, Canada, People's Republic of China, Republic of China, Colombia, Cuba, Czech Republic, Denmark, Dominican Republic, Equador, Egypt, Finland, France, Georgia, Germany, Greece, Guatemala, Honduras, Iceland, Indonesia, India, Iraq, Republic of Ireland, Israel, Italy, Japan, S. Korea, Kuwait, Lithuania, Malaysia, Mexico, Mongolia, Nepal, N. Zealand, Poland, Portugal, Quatar, Romania, Russia, Slovakia, Sovenia, Sweden, Thailand, Turkey, United Arab Emirates, United Kingdom, Venezuela, Vietnam, Yemen.

Aid offered by international organizations:

European Union (Requested by the US)
NATO
OPEC
Organization of American States
United Nations (UNICEF, WHO, FAO, UNHCR)
International Medical Corps
International Federation of the Red Cross/Crescent
Habitat for Humanity International

That's not even a full list. Of the $800+ million USD donated to the US, only $40 million has been used. Some wasn't even accepted.

Also note that, for some of these countries, the US has had bad relations with them in the past.

[the_std]

Why is it ok to bash Americans and paint them all the same because you never "hear" of anything good about America, but never ok to pick on any other country? [snip] Having said that, I also don't always hear about positive things in other countries as well. This whole world is a damn hell hole. America is far from perfect as is everywhere else.

It's not okay to bash Americans and paint them all with the same brush. But you can't direct all of your outrage to the bashers. A large part of it is how your country presents itself to the world, and then gets mad when other people react to those presentations. It doesn't really matter what people say about other countries unless those reputations damage the way the rest of the world react with that country. And if those reputations do damage that country, it's that country's obligation to change its image and help reduce the amount of damage it is suffering because of it.

I often wonder why America even helps anyone anymore, and that goes far back. If we knew back then that every other country would try to make us all out to be stupid and hate mongering assholes, perhaps we shouldn't have helped anyone out in any wars and just defended ourselves and ourselves alone. It's not like anyone helps us in natural disasters or attacks on America, unless they just want us on their side because they know we can help them win their own fights.

That is a load of crap. Your country has received boatloads of support from other countries, including many who don't have much to give at all. Despite your country's reputation, people are still willing to help when other people are suffering. I know that my own country has given generously when your country has been in need, and it's nearly insulting that you'd say that none of us ever help you.

I agree that America has been nosy and interfering with a lot of things throughout the years, but the times that it has benefited other countries, a little more thanks and a little less stereotyping would be appreciated. If Americans gave their lives to save your country's ass, you should be a little more appreciative that these stupid fat hateful slobs helped you.

Your leaders of your country have greatly overstepped their boundaries and have now passed on the unfair consequences of those decisions to you and your countrymen. And almost every country in the world gives to save others. If you look at world aide maps, or statistics, you can see that every country gives just about everything they can afford, and in some cases, more than they can afford, to the causes they deem fit. But if you're talking about giving your lives in the Middle East, it's arguable to say that those lives are wasted because the cause wasn't necessary. Getting angry at the people who live in those war-torn countries for being angry because they've been fed misinformation from both sides, telling them to be grateful for everything you've given them, is a stuck up idea and shows very little understanding for what they've gone through.

[Sage Blackthorn]

OK, I'm putting these all in the same thread since they're about the same topic-roughly.

Long story short: Pastor Terry Jones wanted to burn the Koran (he stopped voluntarily). A group in South Africa wanted to retaliate by burning the Bible (they were stopped by a high court decision). And an atheist in Australia decided to shut them both up by smoking pages of BOTH the Koran and the Bible (this guy posted his stunt on youtube >.<).

The Koran-burning attempt
The African Retaliation
The Holy Smoker

Ok I gave them titles that are probably stupid. But it pretty much sums up the entire situation.

Your thoughts?

After reviewing all three articles, here are my thoughts:

First off concerning Terry Jones, I noticed a few things the make me suspect he incendiary plan to burn copies of the Koran was not for any sort of protest against those involve in the 9/11 incident.

The article states that his son said he was:

“pleased because of the platform” gained by the book-burning plan. He added that the pastor has received more than 100 death threats.

So my thought is that this is a publicity stunt by a man seeking attention for his small and relatively insignificant church. The media fell for it, and he got the attention he wanted.

Part of that attention was in the form of Mohammed Vawda of South Africa staging what was ostensibly a "counter-protest" to express his outrage....consequently garnering media attention for himself as well.

As for the Professor from QUT in Australia, why he felt the need to condemn both of them, I think, is mostly likely because he thinks both men to be deluded in the first place and have no rational reason for trying to incite members of Islam by burning the Koran and then counter protesting the burning by torching a bunch of Bibles. Note that he's an "an assistant organiser with a group called Brisbane Atheists."

In conclusion I find the whole incident to be about respect and tolerance.....or rather the lack of it on the parts of the three people mentioned in the articles. I also see people being easily lead around. One small, insiginificant preacher out in the middle of B.F. Florida has been elevated to being known by the world. If he wanted attention, he got it. 100 death threats may qualify him as a minor celebrity according to pop-culture standards.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
As for the subject of burning books. I'm against it. I find it disrespectful.
Burningof flags in protest. I'm against. I find it disrespectful.
Destroying object considered Holy by one or more religions. I'm against it. I find it disrespectful.

The thing about all of these actions is that they reflect poorly on the person doing them, whether I think the Bible or The Koran are the unadulterated "Word Of God" or not, it shows a person's lack of respect for another's belief's to destroy them. It's as if they are saying "Your beliefs are not valid, only my beliefs are valid." Burning a flag, any flag, is showing disrespect to the nation of that flag. It's as if the person is saying "Your nation is beneath me, I do not respect you."

How can you have peace without mutual respect? How can you relate to another person if you do not acknowledge their fundamental right to believe as they choose (and thereby through example assert your own right to believe as you choose). Now, of course, there is the concept that respect is earned and not given. I agree with this to a point. When two people who don't know each other first meet, it is proper ettiquette to at least try NOT to be disrespectful to them. It's just plain stupid to set out to intentionally piss someone off.....at least if your goal is to try and get along with them. If your goal is to provoke them into a fight, then disrespecting their beliefs is one of the more tried and true ways to do so.

Which brings us to being manipulated.....If you spend your time preaching that one group is "evil" (call them "unbelievers", or "uncivilized", or "savage", or "barbarians"..etc.), and that it's in the interest of "peace" to exterminate them "for the common good", as I see so many "good Christians" preaching out against Islam these days, then to do something designed to piss that particular group off, to elicit a predictable response, and then the preacher can jump up and down and point and say "See! See! I Told You!" in order to agrandize himself...... The article on Terry Jones stated:

Pastor Jones, dressed in a dark suit, said at a press conference that he had never read the book he intended to burn. “I have never read the Koran,” he said. His opposition to the book, he said, was rooted in his belief that it doesn't contain the truths of the Bible.

It is my opinion based on what I've read that "Pastor Jones" is playing the media, and the world who listen's to it, for fools to catapult himself into the limelight as some sort of holy crusader.

[blas87]

I don't agree with the Iraq war at all. But I do sincerely believe that everyone should pray for the soliders. They love this country and our people so much that they'd fight even the stupidest war to make sure that everyone is safe. And that includes people in other countries as well. I just wanted to make that clear. I have NEVER been in favor of this war. But I will not let our soldiers go without my full support. They give up practically everything to make sure that we can sleep safe. They even fight for the ignorant fools who live in this country who constantly go about flapping their gums/fingers bashing this country.

You can call me whatever you want, I really could care less. I am not some inbred freakshow who has my entire property covered with American flags and only buys American and bashes anyone who isn't American. But I am disgusted at the amount of people who think America is just a shithole full of fat, lazy, stupid slobs. No one is perfect, do you hear me, no one. No one, nowhere. I may get feisty and throw some really lowball insults on how America shouldn't help anyone. I get very upset over how it's practically a sport and acceptable form of entertainment to bash America and its citizens. It must be something like my mother once said, people who are always making fun of others just can't face their own flaws. I wonder what yours are? Do you dare say, or are you just that perfect?

I will not stand to watch my country be bashed, in person and online, often from people who have never even been here. I've never been to any other country but Canada. It is not fair in my opinion that it is so acceptable to bash America and everything about her, but if you start bashing any other country and it's people, that's it, fire's started.

[Hobbs]

<snip>

I don't see anyone calling you that Blas, nor anyone saying that one shouldn't support us troops. What I do see, however, are people who only see the bad side of the US, perpetuated by not only international media but our own (Thank you, Faux). It's no wonder that, on even as informed as most of us are here, that some prejudice would be perpetuated by posters. Some people at times have even mentioned things that Snopes has dis-counted.

One thing I'd like to know...where is all of this "anti-soldier" movement? I have never...and I mean never, been accosted or accused of anything because of this uniform.

[the_std]

I have NEVER been in favor of this war. But I will not let our soldiers go without my full support. They give up practically everything to make sure that we can sleep safe. They even fight for the ignorant fools who live in this country who constantly go about flapping their gums/fingers bashing this country.

You can call me whatever you want, I really could care less. [/snip] I get very upset over how it's practically a sport and acceptable form of entertainment to bash America and its citizens. It must be something like my mother once said, people who are always making fun of others just can't face their own flaws. I wonder what yours are? Do you dare say, or are you just that perfect?

I will not stand to watch my country be bashed, in person and online, often from people who have never even been here. I've never been to any other country but Canada. It is not fair in my opinion that it is so acceptable to bash America and everything about her, but if you start bashing any other country and it's people, that's it, fire's started.

Honestly, this whole thing is full of assumptions. I have no idea where you're getting most of this. I don't know anywhere where bashing America is a sport, or done for fun. Yeah, in my country, if you guys do something dumb, we'll point it out. We'll do that for ANY country. And supporting the troops? Where the hell did that come from? Who is talking about them?

Do you dare say, or are you just that perfect?

This is pretty insulting by itself. I have not once, not once in this thread, bashed America or Americans. I am simply pointing out that there is more to the problem than people making fun of your country. If you want to go ahead and bash my country, you go right ahead. We aren't perfect either. And my opinion of my country does not base itself on what people who are not a part of it, people who don't know what it's like from the inside, and people of that ilk think. If it did, that would be a pretty poor reflection of my country's self-esteem as a whole. But if it is as excessive as you think it is (something of which I've seen very little evidence), then all I'm saying is that maybe you should take it as a sign that your country needs fixing. There are things that need to change. Not jump right back on them and say, "If you bash my country, I hate you!" Maybe it's time to say, "You're bashing my country, based on emotion, not rationality. But maybe there are is valid basis for your emotions, but nothing will be resolved until we can talk about it logically."

Then again, that probably won't work because those who bash a country, truly bash it, insult it and degrade it with no logical underpinnings, with no evidence and do it just to get people riled up, those people are assholes. They don't care if your country is good or bad. They just like making fun of people. They're not going to be influenced by reason or logic, and you shouldn't take them seriously because, again, they're assholes.

What I see is not true bashing. It's not the "fat lazy redneck slob" stuff you seem to be getting. I see a lot of criticism of your country's choices and policies. You know what that is? That's healthy. Without constant conflict, how the hell are we supposed to grow, to improve, to move on and past the bad stuff that's around right now? And, to be really frank, that's what it seems you're reacting to. Americans as a whole are known to be prone to "my country, love it or leave it"-itis. But no one has to love your country. It is good to question. So I'd like to see a response from you fueled my logic and reason, with evidence and arguments, rather than "I HATE EVERYONE WHO SAYS BAD STUFF ABOUT US", please.

[blas87]

I do not "hate everyone who says bad things about us" as you assume.

I'm in the minority here, and I'll accept it as it. I have every right to speak up for my country when I feel people are bashing it. And yes, saying that you hardly ever hear anything positive come out of the US is bashing it. You can't sugarcoat it and cover it up by saying "I'm not bashing your country, every country has problems, we'd never grow and nothing would change without problems."

I am defending where I live and the people who I live with, even if we don't always agree or even feel the same about anything. I am thankful for the rights that I do have and for being able to sleep safely.

The troops thing? Well, I had to defend myself and make it crystal clear that I am completely against this war in the first place, since it was being assumed that I was in favor of every time America has stepped on some toes and intervened or started something that turned out to be a horrible idea. I had to add that to make it even more clear that I support my troops no matter what we get stuck in. I even stated before that I am completely aware that America has stepped on toes and gotten us in some real trouble before. I'm sure if I had been alive during Vietnam, I would have been against that as well. I feel a lot of similarities between the two.

Having said that, I am backing out. I have taken the topic way off base, and I cannot debate this without getting upset, and I will not risk getting in trouble because of allowing people to get under my skin. I am admitting I cannot debate in a mature or adult-like manner anymore without breaking rules. So everyone feel free to go back to the original topic at hand. I apologize for my drift.

[HYHYBT]

That's a shame, because I'd LOVE to hear how you came up with

And yes, saying that you hardly ever hear anything positive come out of the US is bashing it.

I've heard "bashing" defined so loosely that it covered saying anything negative, but never before heard anyone claim that merely saying that most of what you hear is negative, rather than making disparaging remarks yourself, is bashing.

[VacuousPlatypus]

Who was it who said "I disagree with what you say, but will defend to the death your right to say it"?

Actually this was written by Beatrice Hall as her summary of Voltaire's attitudes in her work Friends of Voltaire (1906)

I disagree with what you say, but will defend to the death your right to mis-attribute this quote to Voltaire