"coming out" as atheist

[Salesmonkey]

It doesn't matter how gently or kindly I try to explain my lack of belief to friends or family, but it always devolves into them shouting at me. The moment I say I'm uncomfortable with the supernatural element of most religions and consider this a source of doubt, everybody in my social circle decides this is s time for a long, boring conversation. Which ends in them shouting. And I'm going to hell. Ouch. I can feel the flames and pitchforks now.

This is why I fired my therapist. I said I was atheist. She said "Do you believe in a Higher Power (AA class)." and I said "There is no evidence for any supernatural involvement in human affairs". So she said "That makes you Agnostic."

No.

It makes me atheist. Agnostics believe in a something, somehow. I believe in the scientific method, especially the part about replication of results.

So I lie. I'm teaching fricking Sunday School tomorrow! Admittedly, it won't be that hard because we're doing comparative religions. I got a DVD from the library to show the kiddies. But I hate that my social standing and circle of friends is all so dependent on me spouting off something that I consider to be so much B.S.

Why do I choose science over religion? Because it works! We understand how the solar system was formed, how life happened, why it's best to buy seafood on a weekend. Maybe, somewhere around the Big Bang, there's room for a diety-ish power, like Aristotle's "prime mover". Whatever, but there's not a lot of room for replication in that.

Yet people can't believe that I am willing to do good things. Even when you quote their own scripture back at them-
"A virtuous deed is its own reward",
They don't get it.
I mean, if the only reason they can cite for virtue is the fear of eternal fire, how good does this make them? That they are only willing to be good under terrible duress?

That means every time they (according to Leviticus) "covet my ass" they are about to something horrible and then, at the last minute they realize "Oh no, I can't do that because I will be subjected to eternal torture."

So, to return to the original point, how can I make people understand I'm not interested in ignorance, intolerance, and superstition without insulting them?

[Ghel]

I generally find that the easiest way to avoid talking about religion with people who are intensely religious is simply to change the subject. Don't talk about it at all, if you can. You'll have to find a method that works for you. Some sort of compromise or happy medium, if you can. A lot of it will depend on what you place the most value on.

I've found it difficult to have friendships with people for whom religion is an important part of their lives. It's true that this narrows down my pool of friends, but that doesn't really bother me. I've never had very many friends anyway.

Around family, I try to be tactful while still letting them know if they have insulted me. (Such as in the facebook message I quoted on a different thread where my uncle was talking about how great it was that my dad was in heaven.)

You may find yourself using different tactics depending on who you're talking to. For example, if I'm at work and a customer says something blatantly religious, I'll generally go along with it.


As an aside, you're not necessarily using "agnostic" in the correct way. Theist/atheist tells you whether that person believes in a god. Gnostic/agnostic is about whether that person claims to know that a god (or whatever subject) exists. Still, labels are just a shortcut; they don't tell you the whole of a person's philosophy, anyway.

[Sage Blackthorn]

So, to return to the original point, how can I make people understand I'm not interested in ignorance, intolerance, and superstition without insulting them?

When you figure this out, let me know will ya'? Heck, I'd settle for knowing how to get people to at least consider something from my point of view.

[Kelmon]

I must say, coming from Germany, where people with strong - or even any - religious views are quite rare (i don't know any), things like that sound almost unbelieveable to me. If a christian here would say that someone will "burn in hell" for sth., he or she would probably be laughed out of the room...

So i'm not sure if any advice i could give would be of any use to you.

Still. What i wondered was: Why do you feel you need to sugar-coat your convictions? Apparently the people you talk with don't. Personally, i would just let them shout and lecture you - after all, you don't believe in what they say.

Regarding Atheism/Agnosticism: Your therapist is technically right. If you admit that your view of god (atheism) could be swayed by a proof that god exists, you're an agnostic. a "pure" atheist is someone who believes that god does not exist, no matter the evidence, no matter if god appeared right in fron t of them. in the same way that a "pure" theist will believe in a god, no matter what.
Since being agnostic does not tell what you believe in, you can use it to qualify your beliefs. I'm an atheist agnostic. meaning while i strongly believe there is no god(s), i don't claim to be 100% sure. I think most rational atheists could be put into that category, it is just usually shortened to "atheist" because it's more convenient.

[Jack]

I see definitions here of agnosticism and atheism that are inconsistent with the ones I learned -- but maybe I could be wrong?

What I learned:
Agnostic: We cannot know whether God exists.
Negative or Weak Atheist: I do not believe that God exists.
Positive or Strong Atheist: I believe that God does not exist.

Note the subtle but important difference between negative and positive atheism. One is a lack of belief in God; the other is an affirmative belief that God does NOT exist. This is difficult for some people to discern, but it's an important distinction in logic.

Agnostics, as I understand, do not believe in "something, somehow"; rather, they believe that we cannot currently know whether a "something" (a deity) exists. The belief in a god that does not take an active role in the activities of the universe, or who set it all in motion and took no further action, is deism.

I find agnosticism and both forms of atheism compatible with the scientific method, albeit with somewhat different viewpoints. The agnostic correctly posits that we cannot know whether a god exists -- we have no reliable means of verifying whether it does or not. The negative atheist correctly withholds a conclusion that there is no god, having no evidence that there is not, while also withholding a conclusion that there is a god, having no evidence that there is. And the positive atheist correctly posits that there is no god, having no evidence that there is, and placing the burden of proof upon those who claim that there is a god. They all seem reasonable, to me, in one way or another.

One of my pet peeves is the misconception that agnosticism indicates being wishy-washy or undecided -- not so at all.

[telecom_goddess]

I have always identified as an atheist.....and I have never believed God exists and don't believe anyone can prove the existence of God to me so there you go.

I've been this way my whole life, since earliest memories...and people have tried to sway me but it never works.

By the same token I love the ritualism that catholics do, and the beauty of some of their prayers, in terms of how they are written. I just don't apply them to my life.

[Hyena Dandy]

Unless I'm mistaken, Agnostics believe they have no idea, so they can't make a statement one way or another. They don't believe in a thing, or a lack of a thing, they believe they can't give an answer. The people who believe in a something that doesn't do anything are deists. The ones who believe in a something they don't understand are... Mystics I think?

[Sage Blackthorn]

Unless I'm mistaken, Agnostics believe they have no idea, so they can't make a statement one way or another. They don't believe in a thing, or a lack of a thing, they believe they can't give an answer. The people who believe in a something that doesn't do anything are deists. The ones who believe in a something they don't understand are... Mystics I think?

That's pretty much in agreement with what Webster's Dictionary Online says.

[Ghel]

Rather than repeat myself, I'm just going to link to what I just wrote on the "Does Atheism count as a religious viewpoint?" thread.

[MaggieTheCat]

My aunt is going through something similar to the OP. She has her own beliefs (she is not atheist or agnostic, I believe she is Lutheran) but her beliefs are different than her father's (my grandfather) beliefs and he really railroads her about it. He is Wisconsin Synod Lutheran, a very specific branch of the Lutheran church (from what I understand, anyway) that has very stern beliefs. My grandfather has told other people (people who are religious, but who don't belong to the WSL church) that they are going straight to hell when they die because they are not part of the WSL church. He's told my mother that her grandchildren (my brother's kids) are going to hell because they were not baptized in the WSL church. Currently, he's trying to strongarm my aunt into going to a WSL church, even though she has her own church (again, Lutheran no less, just not WSL) that she goes to. She's told him that she has her own church and that she is not comfortable with his religion or talking to him about religion and he gets crazy with her.

The WSL church is the one that doesn't let you take communion with them unless you are a proven active member (I guess you need some kind of membership paperwork from a WSL pastor) and basically live up to the pastor's standards. I wrote a post about this once, a while ago. A pastor in my hometown wouldn't give an elderly lady communion. She had moved to my hometown to go to a nursing home, and she tried to get communion from the local WSL and the pastor wouldn't give it to her because 1) she didn't have the "paperwork" to prove she was WSL and 2) even after she got the paperwork from her previous pastor, the current pastor wouldn't give her communion because she was in the early stages of Alzheimer's and he claimed she didn't understand what communion meant. Nevermind that she was still very functional, still knew what she was doing, and still actually knew what communion meant.

I thought this pastor was unique, however when my grandfather asked his WSL pastor to give my aunt communion (even though she didn't want it), the pastor refused because my aunt was not an active member of the WSL church. He told my grandfather that if my aunt wanted to take communion from him, she would have to read a specific booklet that the pastor gave her, then pass a quiz that the pastor would give.

Anyway, so if anyone does know a good way to get the ultra-religious types off your back, I'm sure my aunt would love to know.

[AdminAssistant]

Also why be friends or care about the opinions of people who will tell you you're going to hell for not believing in what they believe in? Tell them that if they insist on bringing up your beliefs that they can no longer associate with you.

That's very difficult when it's coming from one's family. My fiance (who is Buddhist) has an uncle who will not leave him alone about coming to church, because if he doesn't then he's going to burn in hell with Buddha.

And yes, we have to invite this lovely man to our wedding.

[guywithashovel]

Ever since I started talking about religion online, the whole atheist/agnostic distinction has been something I've found very annoying. Honestly, it's almost a pointless distinction to make. Besides, it's usually used a red herring by fundies who've been backed into a corner they can't get out of.

I don't consider myself atheist or agnostic, but I don't follow any organized religions. However, that does not make me a bad person. Going to church, mosque, or whatever doesn't make you better than anyone. I've been to church, and believe me, people there are certainly not perfect.

Most of my family is similar to me with respect to religion. Though all in all, I usually take a "don't ask, don't tell" approach to my views.

[Talon]

Some sources that might be useful on this topic are Richard Dawkins' Converts' Corner, in which atheists talk about their "de-conversion" experiences.

Possibly the best youtube video on the subject is Theramintrees' Transition to atheism.

Two important points I took from the video.

First: People who don't want you to think, are never your friend.

Second: the person built boundaries against the theist backlash, and stuck to them.

I don't go picking fights with my theist family. For example, recently a family member talked about her disabled child as if it were "god's will". That irritated me, but I kept silent. To do otherwise would serve no purpose. But I'm not going to take any bullshit either. When I "came out", my mom tried to argue with me, using the same tired fallacies that I've seen used by Young Earth Creationists. Namely she didn't try to address my arguments and tried to make the discussion about me. I refused to play her game. Like the video maker, I defined and enforced boundaries. I don't know if that's much help though.

[Scamper]

If you can't talk to someone without fighting about religion, don't talk to them. Get new friends.

As soon as someone starts fighting/yelling about a subject - whether religion or not - I figure they view as a religious topic and try to change the subject. If someone thinks I'm going to hell because I don't believe what they believe... I don't care. I don't think it's worth fighting over.

Incidentally, as for going to Hell? It's an unincorporated village here in Michigan.

[Andara Bledin]

This is why I fired my therapist. I said I was atheist. She said "Do you believe in a Higher Power (AA class)." and I said "There is no evidence for any supernatural involvement in human affairs". So she said "That makes you Agnostic."

There's probably a lot of overlap as to what might be considered an athiest versus an agnostic, but I'd fire my therapist, too, if she wouldn't accept my own assessment of my religious status.

It makes me atheist. Agnostics believe in a something, somehow.

Generally speaking, agnostics are the ultimate fence-sitters. They don't commit to either believing or disbelieving and are refraining from taking a side. Since you have stated you are an atheist, that pulls you out of the realm of agnosticism.

So, to return to the original point, how can I make people understand I'm not interested in ignorance, intolerance, and superstition without insulting them?

I've tried to tell people that it's a very personal thing to me that I don't discuss at random, but half the time that just gets them yelling at me about how I'm going to burn in hell.

Go figure.

So, to return to the original point, how can I make people understand I'm not interested in ignorance, intolerance, and superstition without insulting them?

Well, you might start by not telling them that you think they're ignorant, intolerant, and superstitious....

I know you didn't mean that literally, but holding that view influences your interactions, and it will be felt by those upon whom you direct such apparent contempt.

By the same token I love the ritualism that catholics do, and the beauty of some of their prayers, in terms of how they are written. I just don't apply them to my life.

It's easy to enjoy the aesthetics. I suspect a lot of them are set up specifically to attract people who would otherwise stay away.

Anyway, so if anyone does know a good way to get the ultra-religious types off your back, I'm sure my aunt would love to know.

Wow. In your aunt's case, I would suggest just avoiding him. I doubt there will ever be a way to get around his convictions that everybody must believe the way he believes.

And yes, we have to invite this lovely man to our wedding.

You don't have to. But I can understand the desire to go with the "lesser of evils" option as regards the drama not inviting him might stir up.

If you can't talk to someone without fighting about religion, don't talk to them. Get new friends.

This.

I'm a very libertarian theist. If people choose to not believe or to believe differently, those are their decisions to make and it is not up to me to change their minds for them.

It would be a much nicer place if more people would stop trying to live their neighbors' lives for them.

^-.-^