Humans aren't animals.

[Andara Bledin]

It appears that God, as you define it, is not omnipotent.

Free will.

^-.-^

[Ghel]

Free will.

Please explain. What is free will? Does it prevent God from using his power? Does it mean that God is not omnipotent? How does free will interfere with God making sure that his message gets across to the people who are writing it down and, perhaps more importantly, to the people who read it?

[Ipecac Drano]

Unfortunately, we have no way to know what never got included and what later got removed or what was altered outright.

Not only do we have ways of knowing these things, we have a pretty good idea of what actually was included and deleted.

The Bible has become something like a game of socio-political/religious telephone spanning millennia.

That's for damned sure.

[Ghel]

I don't understand why I never seem to get an answer on this free will thing. And I'm not even talking about people doing evil things, I'm talking about the accuracy of the Bible.

If the Bible has been modified over the centuries, we need to ask "what is God's role in this?" (Assuming, for the sake of the discussion, that he exists.) Why was God unable to get his message across in the first writing? Or, if the first writing was correct, why did he allow modifications to his word? What role could free will possibly have in his ineptness in getting his message across to the people that (we are told) he wants to believe in and worship him? And if he's omnipotent, why does he need a book? Couldn't he just beam the message directly into our brains? Or if his message is "written on the hearts" of all humans, as some Christians claim, what need is there for the Bible?

[Andara Bledin]

I can only speak for myself, but based on my previous interactions with you, I don't get the feeling that all of your questions are sincere, especially since they're often coupled with either derision (which you may or may not intend) and include questions for answers already provided.

To put it bluntly, they sound disingenuous. I could be completely mistaken, but I have no interest in getting into what from my end seems like a typed out bullying session with me at the center. Again.

^-.-^

[Ghel]

If there's derision in my statements, it's aimed towards the ideas, not the people stating the ideas. And if, by "answers," you're referring to "Free will.", that's not an answer. At least, not a complete answer, as stated in my last post.

I don't understand how anyone could interpret free inquiry as bullying. If you don't have answers for questions such as those in this thread, maybe it's time for you to examine what you believe and why. What standards of evidence are you willing to accept? Are you going to accept the claims of a book which you've admitted is at least partially false? How do you determine which parts are true and which parts are not?

[Andara Bledin]

As I stated in another thread, my inability to articulate my reasons is not the same as not understanding them myself.

You and I obviously have wildly different frames of reference for matters concerning religion and since I, myself, cannot figure out how to explain things to you in a manner that makes sense for you, I've refrained for the most part.

As for free will, think of it like this: You have an experiment that involves the use of animals. You like the animals in question, but the validity of the experiment depends upon the animals being undisturbed for the entirety of the run. Think Schroedinger.

Obviously that is a vastly oversimplified and imperfect analogy, but it's the best I can do.

^-.-^

[Ipecac Drano]

I think that what Ghel is getting at (if it isn't, Ghel, I apologize. But I would like to know this) is if the Bible says two conflicting things, how is it decided which thing to go by? For example, is having wisdom a good thing or bad? Ecce:

Good
Proverbs 4:7 "Wisdom is the principal thing; therefore get wisdom: and with all thy getting get understanding."

Bad
Ecclesiastes: "For in much wisdom is much grief: and he that increaseth knowledge increaseth sorrow."

1 Corinthians 1:19 "For it is written, I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and will bring to nothing the understanding of the prudent."

All three are the Word of God, but there are two conflicting views. How does one know which is the Right Way?

(Notice that I had avoided a hot-button topic in my example. I did this just to let you know that I am sincere in my question and am extending an olive branch of sorts as oppose to starting a fight. I really do want to know how one picks one Word of God over another.)

[Ghel]

As I stated in another thread, my inability to articulate my reasons is not the same as not understanding them myself.

That's fine for you, but how do you expect anybody else to agree with you if you can't explain what you mean?

As for free will, think of it like this: You have an experiment that involves the use of animals. You like the animals in question, but the validity of the experiment depends upon the animals being undisturbed for the entirety of the run.

First off, I'm not omnipotent nor omniscient. If you think God is either, that invalidates your analogy.

Additionally, if God inspired the Bible, as you say you believe, then he has interfered with the "experiment."

Think Schroedinger.

What does quantum mechanics have to do with experiments involving animals? Or with God's interactions with humans?

... if the Bible says two conflicting things...

The Biblical contradictions I'm more interested in is when the Bible contradicts what we know about reality. For example, the order of "creation" as described by the Bible is different from how paleontology and cosmology tell us it actually happened. Another example is Noah's flood, but there's so much wrong with it that I don't really want to get into it. (Unless somebody really wants me to.) Next is the fact that there's no evidence, either in language or written history, that Jews were ever slaves to Egyptians. Nor are there contemporary accounts of any of the miracles that Jesus supposedly performed.

Edited to add: These contradictions are in addition to the ones I posted earlier.

If we cannot trust the Bible to tell us the truth on these things, how can we trust it to tell us the truth regarding God?

[Andara Bledin]

Just speaking on the quotes you listed:

The first is speaking of the value of wisdom.
The second speaks of the danger of wisdom.
The third speaks of the "wisdom of the wise."

Out of context, sure, it appears that the first and third quotes are not compatible.

However, in reading the previous and following verses, it is not about wisdom so much as the rejection of Christ and his teachings for the same. Context matters.

^-.-^

[Ipecac Drano]

Just speaking on the quotes you listed:

The first is speaking of the value of wisdom.
The second speaks of the danger of wisdom.
The third speaks of the "wisdom of the wise."

Out of context, sure, it appears that the first and third quotes are not compatible.

However, in reading the previous and following verses, it is not about wisdom so much as the rejection of Christ and his teachings for the same. Context matters.

It depends on who is providing that context. How do I know that God intended for those phrases to mean what they say or that someone else is putting in their own spin?

[Andara Bledin]

That's fine for you, but how do you expect anybody else to agree with you if you can't explain what you mean?

You questioned my own understanding of my faith. How that helps anyone other than me is completely beside the point.

As for your comments about my analogy, let me say it again: That is a vastly oversimplified and imperfect analogy, but it's the best I can do. I've removed the word "obviously" because I guess it just isn't that obvious.

It is things like this that cause me to be increasingly reluctant to even attempt at answers.

What does quantum mechanics have to do with experiments involving animals? Or with God's interactions with humans?

I was speaking of the Observer Effect. Schroedinger had more theories that just those regarding quantum states. Fascinating man, really.

One question I have for you is why is it that you seem so intent on breaking my faith in my faith?

^-.-^

[Ghel]

As for your comments about my analogy, let me say it again: That is a vastly oversimplified and imperfect analogy, but it's the best I can do. I've removed the word "obviously" because I guess it just isn't that obvious.

That's the problem with any analogy, but even more so when one is trying to compare humans to god. Nearly every analogy falls apart because of the inherent limitations of humans, which (depending on the definition of "god") don't apply to god.

I was speaking of the Observer Effect.

The Observer Effect has to do with what happens to sub-atomic particles when you observe them, since observing them necessarily means you have to interact with them, thereby altering their course. I still don't see what this has to do with your analogy.

One question I have for you is why is it that you seem so intent on breaking my faith in my faith?

You have faith in your faith? That's part of the reason I'm trying to help you (and any other believers reading this thread) see that your belief in a God is unsupported.

Already in this thread, you have presupposed that a God exists, you have claimed to know some of the qualities of God, you have claimed that the Bible is at least partially accurate, you have attempted to dodge questions that would reconcile the conflicting attributes of God and the Bible, and you have accused me of being a bully for asking questions regarding your claims and the Bible's claims.

I want to help people avoid wasting the only chance at life that we know that we get. I want to see people try to improve their lives and others' lives now, rather than waiting for some eternal reward after they die. I want to see people take responsibility for their actions rather than expecting to be forgiven by a being who, if truly perfect, cannot be harmed. This is why I continue this discussion.

[Andara Bledin]

You have faith in your faith? That's part of the reason I'm trying to help you (and any other believers reading this thread) see that your belief in a God is unsupported.

Already in this thread, you have presupposed that a God exists, you have claimed to know some of the qualities of God, you have claimed that the Bible is at least partially accurate, you have attempted to dodge questions that would reconcile the conflicting attributes of God and the Bible, and you have accused me of being a bully for asking questions regarding your claims and the Bible's claims.

I want to help people avoid wasting the only chance at life that we know that we get. I want to see people try to improve their lives and others' lives now, rather than waiting for some eternal reward after they die. I want to see people take responsibility for their actions rather than expecting to be forgiven by a being who, if truly perfect, cannot be harmed. This is why I continue this discussion.

I'm not even sure where to begin with this mess.

First off, I neither desire nor do I require your help. Thanks for the concern, but your intervention is not only unnecessary but incredibly arrogant of you to think that your way is better for me than my own.

Second, I never said you were a bully, just that the way you've presented your questioning feels like you're bullying me. That statement is about me more than it is about you, but maybe I'm not the only one who could do to take a step back from this whole thing.

As for what I'm doing with my life, I'd like an example of how my belief in God has done anything to adversely affect my life. How is my personal goal of being more Christlike in my actions harming me or those around me?

^-.-^

[muses_nightmare]

You have faith in your faith? That's part of the reason I'm trying to help you (and any other believers reading this thread) see that your belief in a God is unsupported.

Already in this thread, you have presupposed that a God exists, you have claimed to know some of the qualities of God, you have claimed that the Bible is at least partially accurate, you have attempted to dodge questions that would reconcile the conflicting attributes of God and the Bible, and you have accused me of being a bully for asking questions regarding your claims and the Bible's claims.

I realize this wasn't directed at me, but I'm curious. Do you have this opinion about all religions? (not necessarily the Bible part mind you)

Frankly, it comes off as a bit rude and arrogant. I'm sure that's not what you intended. Personally, I've never asked that my gods be disproved, nor that others should have to follow the tenets of my faith. but perhaps that is the difference between my faith and the Christian faith (or any of the 3 major religions really).