Humans aren't animals.

[muses_nightmare]

I'm not entirely sure if this is the right spot for this, but since it is a view held by many who are devoutly religious (in various faiths) I'll put it here.

Anyway, I got into a debate on another website I am part of, the debate was about Christianity's view of homosexuality, but that is a whole other discussion. The part that got to me was when I brought up that other species in nature have demonstrated homosexuality, therefore it is a naturally occurring thing. The response from the other person was that humans aren't animals.

I'm sorry but: WTF?

Seriously, this is not even something that should be up for debate. I mean really it is just a scientifically proven thing that we are in fact animals. Mammals, primates! This mentality that we are outside of nature bothers me, because it allows people to dismiss important facts because they occur in other animals. Like homosexuality as I noted above.

I'm sure some here will hold the opposite view of me. I'm sure I've heard them all but I'd love to hear the reasoning behind it.

[Ipecac Drano]

I would love to know what some of these people do for a living.

[fireheart17]

The (lack of) logic and reasoning behind it is the whole "creationism vs. evolution" debate. Chances are, the people that discussed it are creationists and dismiss the evolutionary theory as a load of bull.

[Plaidman]

Fireheart nailed it.

Christians, at least the die hard fanatics, do not belive that we evolved. We were created straight by God as we are now, and animals were meant to serve us.

For the longest time, people didn't even belive that animals felt pain like humans did, and thus the rather insane torture they put animals through for various reasons.

To be fair to religion people, while it's a near proven theory that we are evolved, and it exists, (Still haven't found the /missing link/), we also haven't proven that God DOESN'T exist. Being something all powerful as they say, if she didn't want to be found, she wouldn't be found or discovered.

Though I've made alot of religion people heads go spin, and then they promptly ignore me when I bring up the old "Can God make an item so heavly he/she cannot lift?".

If she can, then she isn't all powerful based on strength.

If She can't, then she isn't all powerful.

[muses_nightmare]

Well I understand why based on the evolution thing, but frankly, I'd like to understand how people can just dismiss scientific proof. Million dollar question I suppose.

[Plaidman]

Exactly.

I'm not religious, but how about it turned around?

How can people dare tell you that evolution is wrong.

It's the same thing. You are telling people they are wrong based on their views, just like they are telling you that your views are wrong.

Does it truely matter?

I don't belive in God. If it did exists, then all it cares about is making people suffer.

But guess what? That's my life. Other people belive it in their heart. As long as it doesn't kill others, (and religious fanatics do kill others, but as a whole, not everyone who follows X religion automatically kills others for not following their religion), then what does it matter?

I know it may make your head spin thinking about how religion people can't belive in what you know as fact, but it's the same thing with them. Their facts are God created them and loves them. Faith is what makes them belive and trust in it. They don't get how you don't belive it, and must belive that you come from a monkey, that came from a fish for no reason other then it's just a fact. They NEED a reason for why they are here, and God making them and rewarding them in Heaven is the quickiest and easiest, rather then the crueled reality of we just exist because, and when we die we go into obvilion.


If you really want me to make your head spin, I don't belive in the big bang ether. I belive firmly that the universe has always existed. Nothing happened to create it. It will always be, has always be, and will never cease. Planets will die. Creatures in other galaxies will come and go, but as a whole, the universe has always been.

I know that scientific proof that it was made so many trillions of years by just being made, but so what? What was before it? Why did it happen? HOW did it happen?

The concept of oblivion after death is easy for me. The concept of oblivion before, as in the enternal nothingness of life before the big bang, doesn't sit well with me.

[fireheart17]

Well I understand why based on the evolution thing, but frankly, I'd like to understand how people can just dismiss scientific proof. Million dollar question I suppose.

Some people can be very influential.

Do I get my million dollars now?

That being said, I grew up Uniting Church (which is a mix of Presbyterian and Methodist) of Australia and while we were taught about how God created the Earth and blah blah blah, it was also made clear that it was a story and that we weren't to take it literally. The moral of the story was that God is powerful.

My view? We are animals, whether we believe it or not. We have a coccyx-tailbone. Can God explain why we have it? There are plenty of stories about feral children.

[muses_nightmare]

One, religion does not equal Christianity. I am in fact one of those religion people, I just don't practice a mainstream religion.

Two, I don't generally get into these arguments a lot, this happened on an art website where the original artwork I was commenting on was basically saying that their Jesus loves everyone including gay people. I disagreed with a comment made by someone and let them know. It kind of took off from there.

It just aggravates me when I do think about it and if someone brings it up and is blatantly wrong about something (eg saying that we evolved from monkeys) I will correct them. I see no problem with that. They can correct me on the Bible all they want, as I've never been interested to read those particular myths in full.

[Plaidman]

I'm well aware that religion does not equal Christianity. There are hundreds of religions. However, you were the one that brought up Christianity in your OP and how the one you were arguing with didn't belive we weren't animals, thus my references to Christianity and the most likely scenery of Creatism vs Evolution.

My main point is, you may correct them all you want.
Doesn't make it right.
Just because your backed up by facts, doesn't make them automatically wrong. People belive what they want. God hasn't been proven to exist, but it also haven't been proven to NOT exist. They want to belive in being created straight from the divine batter, let them, it does no harm.

Your not correcting them, your forcing a view of yours on them, just like they are doing to you. Best way to avoid it, is just that. Avoid it. Religion is a hot topic for some.

[Ipecac Drano]

Their facts are God created them and loves them.

There is the main reason why they are wrong: they don't know the difference between fact and opinion.

My main point is, you may correct them all you want.
Doesn't make it right.

As unpleasant as it may be to you and them, yes we can correct them.

Just because your backed up by facts, doesn't make them automatically wrong.

Yes, it does.

People belive what they want. God hasn't been proven to exist, but it also haven't been proven to NOT exist.

Why can't they offer proof of God instead of breaking down the opposite argument? The onus is on them.

They want to belive in being created straight from the divine batter, let them, it does no harm.

We've been through this before; it does cause harm.

Your not correcting them, your forcing a view of yours on them, just like they are doing to you. Best way to avoid it, is just that. Avoid it. Religion is a hot topic for some.

If it was another philosophical view, you'd be correct. But, facts are facts and can be proven and therefore you would be correcting them.

[Plaidman]

There is the main reason why they are wrong: they don't know the difference between fact and opinion.

And to side with the religions, where is the fact that God/s do not exist? If they are truely all powerful, are you so arrogant to belive that humans could find them if they chose not to be found?

As unpleasant as it may be to you and them, yes we can correct them.

So basically, it just goes to your right, and everyone better listen. Because it's your views. It MUST be correct. Everyone else is just stupid. It's their VIEW. It's their BELIEF. They have just as much right to belive in God as you want to belive in evolution.

Yes, it does.

Again. Where is the fact that any kind of God doesn't exist?

Why can't they offer proof of God instead of breaking down the opposite argument? The onus is on them.

So let me get this straight. They have to prove a God's existance, simply because others can't? Again, if God's are so powerful, do you really think us Humans, who haven't even figure out how to have freaking peace on our planet, let alone seen everything in the universe, do you really think it's that easy to find a god? If they existed, and don't want to be found or discovered, they will not be found.

We've been through this before; it does cause harm.

How so? The sterotypical religionous person doesn't go around hurting others for their beliefs. The fanatics do. People who don't belive in God also hurt others. Being nonreligious doesn't mean you never cause harm.

If it was another philosophical view, you'd be correct. But, facts are facts and can be proven and therefore you would be correcting them.

And why be an asshole to others for their beliefs? So fucking what if they want to belive in a God? Is it that horrible to you? Is it such a horrid deal that someone wants to have faith in something greater then them? If it brings them happiness and love, then great for them. No-one has any right to take that away from someone, simply because they don't agree with the method of it.


I don't belive in Gods. But I do belive in fully the right of all people to belive in What they want, and no-one should be such an asshole to scream how wrong they are just because they're different from others.
This applies to both Religion people decrying evoultion and scientists decrying religion. I know tons of religious people that guess what? They don't go around screaming at and yelling at people because they don't belive in God. It's thier belief, and it's their life. If they can go with people that don't belive in God and have no arguments, then people that don't belive in God can leave those that do have a religion in peace and let them belive what they want.

[Ipecac Drano]

And to side with the religions, where is the fact that God/s do not exist? If they are truely all powerful, are you so arrogant to belive that humans could find them if they chose not to be found?

Why would they hide themselves if they want us to believe in them? And, again, the onus is on the believers.

So basically, it just goes to your right, and everyone better listen. Because it's your views. It MUST be correct. Everyone else is just stupid. It's their VIEW. It's their BELIEF. They have just as much right to belive in God as you want to belive in evolution.

Except there is empirical evidence of evolution and not of God. Again, we're talking about things that can be empirically proven and not just of beliefs. Try to stay with us.

Again. Where is the fact that any kind of God doesn't exist?

Once again: the onus is on the believers.

So let me get this straight. They have to prove a God's existance, simply because others can't? Again, if God's are so powerful, do you really think us Humans, who haven't even figure out how to have freaking peace on our planet, let alone seen everything in the universe, do you really think it's that easy to find a god? If they existed, and don't want to be found or discovered, they will not be found.

For something that hasn't been proven, you think you know a lot about it.

How so? The sterotypical religionous person doesn't go around hurting others for their beliefs. The fanatics do. People who don't belive in God also hurt others. Being nonreligious doesn't mean you never cause harm.

Because those people vote for issues based on their beliefs and it affects others.

And why be an asshole to others for their beliefs? So fucking what if they want to belive in a God? Is it that horrible to you? Is it such a horrid deal that someone wants to have faith in something greater then them? If it brings them happiness and love, then great for them. No-one has any right to take that away from someone, simply because they don't agree with the method of it.

I don't belive in Gods. But I do belive in fully the right of all people to belive in What they want, and no-one should be such an asshole to scream how wrong they are just because they're different from others.
This applies to both Religion people decrying evoultion and scientists decrying religion. I know tons of religious people that guess what? They don't go around screaming at and yelling at people because they don't belive in God. It's thier belief, and it's their life. If they can go with people that don't belive in God and have no arguments, then people that don't belive in God can leave those that do have a religion in peace and let them belive what they want to.

You're having a hard time seeing beyond that, aren't you? Do you really enjoy being a contrarian?

BTW, if you insist on calling me an asshole, I reserve the right to call you a crybaby who denies things he doesn't like and wants his own way.

[muses_nightmare]

*sigh* I know that I referred to Christians, but it's a pet peeve of mine when people say religious and automatically mean Christian.

If there are facts to back things up it is a correction, you forget that I also believe in God (well a few actually, but that's beside the point), I've never once tried to push that on anyone else. Evolution and other scientific matters? Well that's not a belief, it's simply not the same as having faith in something.

I'd also like to point out that a few of the Christians I've talked to have insisted that I provide proof of my gods while they sit there thinking they don't have to do the same. So as Ipecac Drano said the onus is on them to prove the existence of their god, especially if they're asking the same of other religions.

When I correct people it is in the context of a discussion of the subject usually, I don't just interrupt a conversation to correct them. It annoys me when I overhear people talking about things like that and being blatantly wrong. Religion and evolutionary theory are not mutually exclusive things.

[Ipecac Drano]

Religion and evolutionary theory are not mutually exclusive things.

Actually, they are mutually exclusive, as religion belongs to the realm known as Mystica (religious truth), and evolutionary theory belongs to the realm Empirica (finding truth through empirical results: experiments).

Could science be tolerated by religion? Sure. But being able to tolerate something is much different than integrating and reconciling it; especially when the integration and reconciliation is supposed to be mutual. In order for science to integrate, reconcile or even simply tolerate religion into its realm, it has to assume beforehand that there is a God, and so forth. Science doesn't make such a presumption.

[muses_nightmare]

What I meant was that because one is religious, does not mean one has to throw out science. I certainly don't, and I am religious. Maybe using the term mutually exclusive was technically incorrect, but I was using it to get the point that religion and science can coexist.

Evolutionary theory doesn't state how the world was initially created after all, just how species evolved over time. So one could in theory believe that their god(s) started the creation of the universe/world, but natural processes as science understands them did the rest, this has no effect on the science of evolutionary theory, only the theory of how the universe came into existence (There's a word for it and for the life of me I can't think of it). So one can argue for the science of evolutionary theory, while still having faith in a religion.