Humans aren't animals.

[Ipecac Drano]

but perhaps that is the difference between my faith and the Christian faith.

Out of curiosity, what is your faith?

[Ghel]

Thanks for the concern, but your intervention is not only unnecessary but incredibly arrogant of you to think that your way is better for me than my own.

I feel intervention is necessary when somebody makes claims that they don't demonstrate to be true, such as your claims about God and the Bible. As for being arrogant, I'm not the one presupposing a particular God exists without providing any support of the claim.

...but maybe I'm not the only one who could do to take a step back from this whole thing.

Do you think I'm losing my temper in this conversation? Nothing could be further from the truth!

As for what I'm doing with my life, I'd like an example of how my belief in God has done anything to adversely affect my life.

You've gone onto a forum that encourages discussion and even argument, making claims about a supernatural being without supporting those claims with, well, anything. No logic, no reasoned arguments, no evidence. No reason for anyone to agree with your bald claims.

Do you have this opinion about all religions?

That the belief is unsupported? Yes. Until somebody gives me some evidence to support their superstitions, I'm going to continue not believing in them. Why should I believe a god exists any more than I believe unicorns exist?

Frankly, it comes off as a bit rude and arrogant.

How is it rude to ask questions? What is wrong with wanting to know the truth? With asking for evidence before agreeing with something this important?

[muses_nightmare]

That the belief is unsupported? Yes. Until somebody gives me some evidence to support their superstitions, I'm going to continue not believing in them. Why should I believe a god exists any more than I believe unicorns exist?

And while some people may argue with you over this, I'm not going to. I don't expect you to believe in anything but what you believe in.

Asking questions is not rude, but that singular statement that I quoted in my other post came off as such. Like I said I'm sure that's not what you intended.

And I follow the Kemetic faith, which I'm not saying is better than any other (before anyone gets that idea)

[Andara Bledin]

I feel intervention is necessary when somebody makes claims that they don't demonstrate to be true, such as your claims about God and the Bible.

Why? Why do you feel so superior in this one area that you can decide for others whether their belief in one particular thing is harmful? Again, I challenge you to find some manner in which this belief causes me or those around me any form of harm.

Do you think I'm losing my temper in this conversation? Nothing could be further from the truth!

That's a lot of assumption to take from my comment. In fact, I don't believe you are "losing your temper" over this matter. I do, however, feel that you ability to be objective on what is at heart a subjective topic to be severely compromised.

No logic, no reasoned arguments, no evidence. No reason for anyone to agree with your bald claims.

Feel free to not agree or accept them, then. Unlike some, I am not trying to force others to change how they think.

How is it rude to ask questions? What is wrong with wanting to know the truth? With asking for evidence before agreeing with something this important?

This has nothing to do with "asking questions" and for you to even claim otherwise is completely disingenuous. This is about you trying to force your truth onto everyone who thinks in a manner you don't approve of.

You made a statement that you honestly think that your answers are the only answers. To think that you are so much better informed to make such fundamental decisions for not only people you have never met, but for people you have never even interacted with, is the utmost in arrogance.

^-.-^

[Ghel]

Why do you feel so superior in this one area that you can decide for others whether their belief in one particular thing is harmful?

Why do you feel so superior that you think that you can claim a god exists when that god has never been demonstrated to exist? Why should I give your pet superstition any more credence than than of people who say the Earth is flat or that leprechauns exist? What makes your belief so special that it is exempt from scrutiny?

... what is at heart a subjective topic ...

If a god exists, there should be some objective evidence. Therefore, it is not a subjective topic.

Unlike some, I am not trying to force others to change how they think.

Perhaps not you, personally, but people who believe similarly to you are trying to force others to behave as if they believe the same as they do. That is part of the harm in religious thinking.

You made a statement that you honestly think that your answers are the only answers.

Where have I said this? Please provide a quote.

The closest thing to this I can think of that I would have said is that the truth can be objectively verified. That reality doesn't change just because of what somebody believes.

[crashhelmet]

As had been stated in the last thread on Free Will, God grants us all Free Will to do as we please. He gives us that Free Will to allow for individuality. Like a parent, He establishes the rules and disciplinary actions we are to face should we break said rules. For those of us that do break them, He offers for forgiveness to those that seek it. But alas, these words fall on closed minds.

[Andara Bledin]

Why do you feel so superior that you think that you can claim a god exists when that god has never been demonstrated to exist?

I've never claimed superiority for anything. I claim I believe what I believe. If you think I'm a fool for my beliefs, that's fine. To think that you have the right to try to force me to change those beliefs for my own good is completely out of line.

Perhaps not you, personally, but people who believe similarly to you are trying to force others to behave as if they believe the same as they do. That is part of the harm in religious thinking.

Ah, I see. So, since someone else who claims to have the same belief system as myself was a complete fucktard, you're going to act just like him. That makes sense.

Where have I said this? Please provide a quote.

"I want to help people avoid wasting the only chance at life that we know that we get."

What chance am I, or most of the rest of the world for that matter, wasting by having beliefs other than in only that which can be immediately proven?

Hell, I've come to more harm just believing that people are basically good than I have for believing in God.

In fact, the only harm I've ever come to that is in any way related to my belief in God has been persecution from those who disagree.

^-.-^

[Ipecac Drano]

In fact, the only harm I've ever come to that is in any way related to my belief in God has been persecution from those who disagree.

How badly did you suffer?

[Ghel]

To think that you have the right to try to force me to change those beliefs for my own good is completely out of line.

Who said anything about force? I would oppose any legislation that prevented people from practicing their religion as they saw fit (as long as it doesn't interfere with the rights of others). I also oppose legislation that gives preferential treatment to religion.

I would prefer that you come to the realization that your belief in a god is baseless. I would hope that you would look at why you believe and ask yourself if that reason would convince anyone else. If not, why does it convince you?

"I want to help people avoid wasting the only chance at life that we know that we get."

What chance am I, or most of the rest of the world for that matter, wasting by having beliefs other than in only that which can be immediately proven?

First off, the rest of the world does not believe in your god. Why should anyone believe in your god as opposed to Allah, Vishnu, or the thousands of other gods humans have worshiped across history? What makes your belief more believable?

Second, since you believe in the Biblical God, as evidenced by your statement that at least part of the Bible is true, you must believe in Heaven. But how do you know that Heaven exists? How do you know that you get another life after this one? And if you don't know (if you only believe), then you are wasting your only chance at life that you know you get.

Edited to add:

In fact, the only harm I've ever come to that is in any way related to my belief in God has been persecution from those who disagree.

In what way have you been persecuted by those who don't share your belief? That's a pretty serious charge.

[Andara Bledin]

Who said anything about force?

You spoke of staging an intervention. If that isn't the height of hubris, I don't know what is.

I would prefer that you come to the realization that your belief in a god is baseless.

I was talking to God when I was a child, before I even knew what religion was. You won't ever believe it, but that's more than enough for me. And again, who the fuck cares if I believe in God or not? So I believe there's something more than just what we can quantify. I'm not harming anyone so get off my back.

You asked questions, I gave you what answers I had. You don't accept them, and I'm fine with that. Why you feel the need to browbeat me into also not accepting them is beyond me.

First off, the rest of the world does not believe in your god.

Every reply you make, you put more words in my mouth. I never said most of the world believes in God. I said most of the world believes in something, whether that be God, Allah, Vishnu, Buddha, or the Flying Spaghetti Monster.

However, checking just a few different sources, all of them seem to point to Christianity as having the most followers of worldwide religions.

How do you know that you get another life after this one? And if you don't know (if you only believe), then you are wasting your only chance at life that you know you get.

Whether I got another life or not has sweet fuck-all to do with how I comport myself in this one.

That's like saying that since I'll meet new people tomorrow, I won't bother being civil to the ones I meet today. The very thought is repugnant, and that you feel that I am that sort of person is highly offensive.

^-.-^

[Ipecac Drano]

You spoke of staging an intervention. If that isn't the height of hubris, I don't know what is.

It isn't, and you don't.

I was talking to God when I was a child, before I even knew what religion was. You won't ever believe it, but that's more than enough for me.

I believe it.

And again, who the fuck cares if I believe in God or not? So I believe there's something more than just what we can quantify. I'm not harming anyone so get off my back.

Already been covered many times before.

You asked questions, I gave you what answers I had. You don't accept them, and I'm fine with that. Why you feel the need to browbeat me into also not accepting them is beyond me.

Asking for clarification is not the same as browbeating.

Every reply you make, you put more words in my mouth. I never said most of the world believes in God. I said most of the world believes in something, whether that be God, Allah, Vishnu, Buddha, or the Flying Spaghetti Monster.

Nor did she say that you had. (Plus, nobody actually believes in the FSM. Just sayin'.)

However, checking just a few different sources, all of them seem to point to Christianity as having the most followers of worldwide religions.

That's still not "the rest of the world". There are billions of others who are not Xtian.

Whether I got another life or not has sweet fuck-all to do with how I comport myself in this one.

And it shows.

That's like saying that since I'll meet new people tomorrow, I won't bother being civil to the ones I meet today. The very thought is repugnant, and that you feel that I am that sort of person is highly offensive.

No, that's you being overly defensive.

[Andara Bledin]

I believe it.

You believe I spoke to God but you don't believe God exists?

So, which is it?

Already been covered many times before.

Obviously it hasn't or people wouldn't still be trying to "cure" me of my "delusions."

Nor did she say that you had. (Plus, nobody actually believes in the FSM. Just sayin'.)

She said, and I quote, "First off, the rest of the world does not believe in your god." Emphasis hers. I never mentioned "my god" in the statement she responded to, so she is either putting words in my mouth or, like you, conveniently ignoring words that are there.

Also, I assume you have research to back up your claim that nobody really believes in the FSM? Certainly, you wouldn't make a statement of fact that wasn't supported, yes?

That's still not "the rest of the world". There are billions of others who are not Xtian.

And, here is where you conveniently stop reading the whole statement. The first time I said, "most of the rest of the world" as regards having a belief (I never even mentioned any god at all, much less my own), and the second time, which you even quoted, so you can't say you didn't see it, was "I said most of the world believes in something."

The current world population is less than 7 billion. While reports of how many follow various religions varies (one particular report has more respondents than there are people, so is obviously inaccurate), there are at least 4 billion who follow some religion, and that total is more likely to be over 5 billion. So my statement that most of the rest of the world follows a belief system is supported by fact. Wikipedia lists it at between 68 and 90%.

Somewhere between 2 and 3 billion of those are Christian. That's between a quarter to a half of the entire world's population that believes in what you two keep referring to as "my God," and up to half of those with a religion at all.

If you're going to debate with me, at least debate what I actually said, and not change it to something you can more easily refute.

And it shows.

So... You agree that whether I will be reincarnated or not has no effect on my actions in this one?

^-.-^

[Ghel]

You spoke of staging an intervention.

Perhaps I was not clear. I meant that I feel I must intervene when someone makes claims (particularly supernatural claims) that they either cannot or will not support with evidence.

I was talking to God when I was a child, before I even knew what religion was.

Really? I've never met anyone who was not exposed to religion at least a little when they were growing up. Were your parents not religious? Your extended family? Was there not a church, synagogue or mosque within 60 miles of where you lived? Had you never heard of Easter or Christmas?

I'm not harming anyone so get off my back.

Stop making claims about God and the Bible that you can't support, and I'll get off your back.

I never said most of the world believes in God.

You're right. You didn't say that. I apologize.

Whether I got another life or not has sweet fuck-all to do with how I comport myself in this one.

Oh, well, that must be part of the Bible that you think isn't true. How do you know?



Andara, your whole response seems to be about my tone. You have no responses for my actual questions. You don't even address the crux of the argument. You just provide distraction after distraction from the objections that I have to your claims.

This is not a social situation. It is an open debate. I feel no need to be polite or nice. If you hold your beliefs so closely that any attack on your beliefs appears to be an attack against you, it is time to shut off the computer and hide from reality.

[Ipecac Drano]

You believe I spoke to God but you don't believe God exists?

So, which is it?

Oooh! The Loaded Question! No, I believe that you believe that you spoke to God when you were a child.

Obviously it hasn't or people wouldn't still be trying to "cure" me of my "delusions."

All one has to do is go back into this thread and see that it's been brought up before. It has nothing to do with other people trying to cure you.

She said, and I quote, "First off, the rest of the world does not believe in your god." Emphasis hers. I never mentioned "my god" in the statement she responded to, so she is either putting words in my mouth or, like you, conveniently ignoring words that are there.

I didn't ignore your words. You just wish I had.

Also, I assume you have research to back up your claim that nobody really believes in the FSM? Certainly, you wouldn't make a statement of fact that wasn't supported, yes?

Taking things literally?

And, here is where you conveniently stop reading the whole statement.

The point is that not all of the world believes in Yahweh.

[Andara Bledin]

Really? I've never met anyone who was not exposed to religion at least a little when they were growing up. Were your parents not religious? Your extended family?

I was either three or four at the time, and I knew nothing of religion. Easter was about bunnies and hidden eggs and chocolate and Christmas was a guy in red that gave presents. And I'm not even sure how much of that I understood.

None of my extended family has ever been overtly religious. It wasn't until after I started school that I first set foot in a church, and by that time, I was no longer having such conversations. Most of my coworkers tend to be surprised I'm not an atheist because other than when conversing specifically about religion, nobody in my family ever brings it up.

Oh, well, that must be part of the Bible that you think isn't true. How do you know?

How does that follow? I can't see any connection between my belief in reincarnation and how I behave in this life.

^-.-^