An upturn in demonic posession

[Racket_Man]

that is according to this "preacher" or "priest"

A "new" twist on some of the religious views of Harry Potter and Twilight

Harry Potter and Twilight have led to an upturn in "demonic" Possessions


the priest "claims" since 2003 (the beginning of the height of the HP craze) that he himself has seen an upswing in possessions and has "performed" numerious "exorcisms". the reason for the upswing is because children "play around with stuff" and willingly open the door to demons and Satan and evil.


now to counter that let us back up a little. HMMMMM GOD and the Angels and good spirits do seem to have equal ability in this matter (trying to remember my Catholic upbringing) but THEIR ability is "good" (ie. healing the sick, raising the dead, virgin pregancy, etc.) but is still "magic" by defination.

HMMMM I am a Harry Potter fan (not Twilight) and yes I was taught that ANYTHING that smacks of "other worldly" power or ability is supposed to be "evil" but if (as in Harry Potter) does that make both sides "bad" for having those "powers"????

But then again I like the saying "Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguisable from magic"

[smileyeagle1021]

But then again I like the saying "Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguisable from magic"

I like that saying... if you think about it, bring a person from the civil war era and try to explain how we are capable to fly, or trains that safely operate underground with no smoke, or machines that allow you to see inside the body, or screens that display moving and talking pictures, or... well, you get the idea.
I'm not sure just how advanced technology would have to be now for us to think it magic (simply because we've advanced so quickly that we are now capable of imagining technologty well beyond where we are at), but I'm sure that it could happen (some alien race has a technology that can cure someone with specific wavelengths of radiation just by pointing a device on the hand at them, think G'uould tech, it would seem like magic to us).

Now, back on topic of Harry Potter and demonic possessions, and a secular explanation... has he thought that kids have always had imagination and this is simply the most recent thing for them to use to fill in the blanks...

[Ipecac Drano]

[KitterCat]

Its sort of funny how some priest make a distinction between books like Harry Potter / Twilight and books such as Narnia / Lord of the Rings. They all have magic and good vs. evil. But since C.S. Lewis and J.R.R. Tolkien were Christian they’re books are ok and not full of evil. Only the not overly religious writers are able to bring kids over to the dark side. >^-^<

[Ghel]

Actually, both J.K. Rowling and Stephanie Meyer are self-described Christians (Mormon, in the case of Meyer).

I have some thoughts on the original article, but I'll write that response later this evening, when I have time to go into detail.

[crashhelmet]

This is a case where someone can easily take what he said out of context and make it a scandal when it doesn't deserve to be.

"Harry Potter and these Twilight vampires glamorize the power of evil," Father Eutenener explained, "and this has lead to many, many cases of possession among young people." It may begin with a child or teenager simply "playing around" with the occult, but that seemingly harmless act is "opening a window" to possession.

He never says that reading these books will cause you to be possessed. It's not even the books themselves, but the glamorizing of evil that leads to it.

What is and isn't evil is a matter of belief and semantics. Yes, magic (including shamanistic shapeshifting) and vampirism can be evil, but when used for a good purpose is it still evil? If a person uses an "evil" act to do good things, is it still evil? Is an executioner guilty of breaking the Commandment "Thou Shall Not Kill"?

At the same time, what is "good"? In my opinion, a Pro-Life zealot blowing up an abortion clinic in the name of God is not an evil act for good purposes. It's just evil as well as breaking the Commandment "Thou Shall Not Take the Lord's Name in Vain."

Getting back on topic... It's the fascination, and even obsession, with the occult that opens up the possibility of possession. As he points out, you have to want to be possessed in order to get possessed. For some people fantasy and horror stories might be the "gateway drug." For others, it might be music, video games, or even peer pressure. It can come from anywhere.

[Ghel]

Oh, the stooopid. It hurts my brain.

First he says that "playing around" with the occult is "opening a window" to possession and "demons do not discriminate between intentions". Then he says that a demon can only enter a human being when invited. Does he really think that children are going around asking demons (which they may or may not believe in) to possess them?

Granted, this interview is posted on a Catholic website, and both the priest and the interviewer are Catholic. So it's not surprising that the interviewer accepts the priest's claims uncritically.

It's fairly obvious that the priest has not read either the Harry Potter or Twilight books nor seen the movies, since both series describe people as good or evil based on their actions, not on whether they believe in magic or the occult. (Is that redundant?) It's interesting to note that the priest thinks that one type of magical thinking can lead to other types of magical thinking. For instance, belief in a magical sky daddy can lead you to think that invisible evil creatures exist that can control children against their will.

This interview also makes me wonder what he does to these children during the "exorcisms." I've read articles (in respectable newspapers) about some horrible things done to children thought to be possessed. Even just forcing a child to stay in one place for hours on end while church members chant around him or her is terrible enough, causing only mental damage and not the physical damage I've seen reported in some cases.

[gremcint]

It's called the internet.

People have always been gullible and stupid, now they have a way to easily gather and share their stupidity and find things to think are true. more and more people talk about possession more and more people think they have it. just like any other disease or condition that people selfdiagnose.

It's not the books it's the internet.

[Eisa]

Wow. The stupid, it burns.

I know that the Catholic priest guy would never accept this as evidence, but I've been talking with someone who's an empath and who DOES 'play around' with magickal power of a sort. We ended up talking about Ouija boards for a moment.

In the hands of someone who has NO magickal ability whatsoever, it's just a stupid toy. The danger comes from someone untrained trying to handle it. Then something bad could conceivably happen. That's how some bad stuff like demonic possession shit happens, is someone takes on more than they can handle, through stupidity or ignorance.

But from reading Harry Potter or Twilight? Say WHAT? The only problems I see with Twilight, beyond the fact that Stephenie Meyer can't write worth a shit, are far more down-to-earth than demonic possession. Like glamorizing unhealthy, abusive relationships and stalking. Not demons.

And I would also say that Harry Potter pretty clearly demonstrates that actions are what make you good or bad...and that it IS better to be good, being bad has consequences. And yeah, what about Narnia? I LOVE the Narnia books. But they have magic in them. And a giant talking lion. How come THAT doesn't lead to demonic possession? I mean...it practically happens in The Silver Chair with what happens to Prince Rilian with the Witch.

So wtf guy talking out your ass...

[Ghel]

Except that the giant talking lion is supposed to represent Jesus. It's stupid, I know, but that's what they say. But it's why some Christians like the Narnia series but don't like Harry Potter or Twilight.

[Ipecac Drano]

Except that the giant talking lion is supposed to represent Jesus. It's stupid, I know, but that's what they say. But it's why some Christians like the Narnia series but don't like Harry Potter or Twilight.

It's not what just "they" say, the author, C. S. Lewis, said so:

Since Narnia is a world of Talking Beasts, I thought He [Christ] would become a Talking Beast there, as He became a man here. I pictured Him becoming a lion there because (a) the lion is supposed to be the king of beasts; (b) Christ is called "The Lion of Judah" in the Bible; (c) I'd been having strange dreams about lions when I began writing the work. The whole series works out like this:

The Magician's Nephew tells the Creation and how evil entered Narnia.
The Lion etc the Crucifixion and Resurrection.
Prince Caspian restoration of the true religion after corruption.
The Horse and His Boy the calling and conversion of a heathen.
The Voyage of the "Dawn Treader" the spiritual life (especially in Reepicheep).
The Silver Chair the continuing war with the powers of darkness
The Last Battle the coming of the Antichrist (the Ape), the end of the world and the Last Judgement.

Ford, Paul (2005). Companion to Narnia: Revised Edition.

Like almost everything else, there are some controversies, most notably gender stereotyping, race, and paganism.

[crashhelmet]

Oh, the stooopid. It hurts my brain.

First he says that "playing around" with the occult is "opening a window" to possession and "demons do not discriminate between intentions". Then he says that a demon can only enter a human being when invited. Does he really think that children are going around asking demons (which they may or may not believe in) to possess them?

People typically don't go around asking to be possessed, nor does he even insinuate that. As I said in my reply before yours, he never says that reading these books will cause the person to be possessed. He says that the glamorization of evil can lead to interest in and then playing around and dabbling in the occult. That results in drawing attention to the person and a demon seeking a host will make then make contact. Unless, of course, the person is actually trying to invoke one. A host must give the demon permission to take possession of their body. In most cases, it involves a Faustian-like bargain. In others, it's done freely for whatever personal reasons.

Granted, this interview is posted on a Catholic website, and both the priest and the interviewer are Catholic. So it's not surprising that the interviewer accepts the priest's claims uncritically.

Catholics, as well as many other religions, have a belief on what possession is, how it happens, and why it happens. Everything the priest says falls in line with those beliefs. Why should the writer contest it? Would you expect Scott Mowbray, the editor of Popular Science magazine, to disagree with one of Science's pre-existing theories?

It's fairly obvious that the priest has not read either the Harry Potter or Twilight books nor seen the movies, since both series describe people as good or evil based on their actions, not on whether they believe in magic or the occult. (Is that redundant?) It's interesting to note that the priest thinks that one type of magical thinking can lead to other types of magical thinking. For instance, belief in a magical sky daddy can lead you to think that invisible evil creatures exist that can control children against their will.

Once again, he never says that reading these books will cause a person to be possessed. He never says that reading these books means that you believe in or participate in the occult. He says that the glamorization of evil "...has lead to many, many cases of possession among young people." through the peak in interest and "playing around" with the occult.

This interview also makes me wonder what he does to these children during the "exorcisms." I've read articles (in respectable newspapers) about some horrible things done to children thought to be possessed. Even just forcing a child to stay in one place for hours on end while church members chant around him or her is terrible enough, causing only mental damage and not the physical damage I've seen reported in some cases.

There is a whole lot more to the Rite of Exorcism than standing around a person, praying, chanting, and sprinkling holy water, or whatever else Hollywood makes it out to be. The Church has strict rules and guidelines that have to be followed, including properly determining if the person is really possessed or not. In order to perform the Rite of Exorcism, extensive training needs to be completed and then can only be performed with a Bishop's approval, on a case by case basis. Many suspected possessions are actually mental disorders like Schizophrenia or BiPolar Disorder and its a priest that helps get the person in the proper treatment.

[Racket_Man]

Except that the giant talking lion is supposed to represent Jesus. It's stupid, I know, but that's what they say. But it's why some Christians like the Narnia series but don't like Harry Potter or Twilight.

but the problem is is that Harry Potter (the character) is not really that different from Asland the Lion esp if you actually read the last HP book The Deathly Hallows ie. the hero must sacrifice themselves for the greater good OR the use of or the invocation of "ancient magic" to which the "bad guy" knows of but cares not for or does not pay attention to their detriment to in the end.

Harry Potter and Asland both do this in a VERY similar manner. go alone, be humilated and ulimately "killed" by the White Witch or Lord Volamort, only to have the "ancient Magic" invoked, the "hero" is resurrected or brought back to life (or not even really killed), the masses are protected and the evil one is vanquished. very Jesus like in both stories

and if you look at THe Lion, The Witch and The Wardrobe there are various pagan mythology references as well as Christian

HP and The Lion the Witch and the Wardrobe are very similar stories

[Ghel]

He says that the glamorization of evil in these books can lead to interest in and then playing around and dabbling in the occult.

Fixed it for you.

A host must give the demon permission to take possession of their body.

Evidence, or it never happened.

Catholics, as well as many other religions, have a belief on what possession is, how it happens, and why it happens.

That belief does not coincide with reality.

Why should the writer contest it?

By pointing out that the website was Catholic, I was saying that I would go easy on the interviewer for not saying "how do you know?" The priest in the interview doesn't get that sort of leniency from me.

... Science's pre-existing theories...

There's no such thing. Every bit of scientific knowledge can be rediscovered using the scientific method. It can be demonstrated to be true over and over again. Religion has nothing like it. All religious "knowledge" is declared by fiat. Without the Bible, there would be nothing with which to reconstruct the legend of Jesus, and therefore nothing on which to base the Christian religion.

Once again, he never says that reading these books will cause a person to be possessed. He never says that reading these books means that you believe in or participate in the occult. He says that the glamorization of evil "...has lead to many, many cases of possession among young people." through the peak in interest and "playing around" with the occult.

Right, it's an indirect relationship, but a relationship nonetheless. Why focus on Harry Potter and Twilight? Why not focus on true crime stories, such as the far more evil acts of John Wayne Gacy? Why the focus on fictional accounts of magic, except that it may align with the fictional accounts of magic in "holy" books?

... including properly determining if the person is really possessed or not.

And how, exactly, does one do that? What evidence is there for demons or demonic possession?

HP and The Lion the Witch and the Wardrobe are very similar stories

Yeah, I can see that. I still maintain that the real hero of HP is Neville.

[Greenday]

From what I can recall, as far as demons and stuff goes (of which I don't really believe in), you don't have to physically say out loud that you invite demons in. The closer to the occult you get, the more you subconsciously open your mental block to evil forces.