Something I think bares reading.

[Gravekeeper]

Statement of belief? What? "There's probably no God"? "There is no afterlife"? That's what you think people should be so upset about? Why?

You seriously don't grasp the problem? You don't see the ironic hypocrisy in acting exactly like the theists you so denounce, but saying its ok because you're right? ( You know, exactly like they do? ). No religious viewpoint should be advertised in a public forum. It should be a personal thing that does not extend beyond your friends, family and congregation/coven/cult/horde/D&D group.

After having been raised Catholic, and trying to strip myself of the vestiges of the faith, I still consider myself a recovering Catholic.

And your experiences are obviously global to everyone? I was raised Catholic too. I don't consider myself recovering in any way.

It took years for me to stop saying "Bless you" after someone sneezed. (Damned repetitive conditioning.)

...Are you serious? Practically everyone says that regardless of faith.

You may see arrogance in it, but I see someone trying to overcome an abusive relationship.

If thats how you see it, that's fine, but yet again that does not justify advertising a religious viewpoint on the side of a bus.

However, the idea that Jesus was the son of God is ridiculous.

Except I didn't say Son of God(tm) Jesus

Also ridiculous is the belief in a perfect God who needs to be worshipped. Or an omnipotent, good God who refuses to stop unnecessary suffering.

I also didn't say the fundementalist Christian God. All I said was "higher power". I also didn't mention Xenu. -.-

Maybe not, but it could be the catalyst that gets the person to actually think about what they believe and why.

Could be, but 95% of the time you're going to offend someone by belitting their believes. Have some respect.

I could also be a wakeup call to someone on the sidelines, observing the exchange.

Or you could piss them off too.

The nearest atheist organization to where I live is over 300 miles away. But you can't go three blocks without passing a church.

Your situation is not the global standard.

This is complete and utter BS. The point of practically every religion is to attract as many followers as possible. To fill the pews. To fill the collection plates. To breed more followers.

You are so completely wrong I'm not sure where to start. I have to go with Andara on this one. You're completely fixed on Christianity and Catholicism, and using that to make blanket statements about all religion.

Just because he may have said it doesn't mean it's so.

Wait, did you just argue *for* him being the son of God? >.>

What she had said isn't just about Xtianity; it applies to other religions as well.

Frankly, no it doesn't. Once you leave that primary sphere of Judeo-Christian-Islam things get quite a bit different. Also, things like Hinduism or Buddhism aren't obscure things no one has ever heard of.

[Peppergirl]

Just adding something I found humorous that I hope will make others smile.

Here is a Facebook status that my friend used that I, in turn, 'borrowed' for mine:



"It really doesn't matter how far left or right you go. Sooner or later, you hit crazy."



To a certain extent, I think the same can be said for theists vs atheists. There are extreme cases on both sides and both seem batshit to me.


Yeah, I know - I'm a shitty debater, which is why I don't even make an attempt in threads like these. But I found it amusing and figured I'd throw it in for the sake of levity.

[Ghel]

Jesus said that he was the son of man several times. It seemed an important distinction to him.

I wasn't referring to what Jesus is reported to have said. I was referring to the beliefs about him that people profess.

You're "religious" experience is very narrowly focused.

That's true. I have more experience with Christianity than any other religion, so that's what I talk about most. However, if someone were to try to convince me of the merits of a different religion, I would have a response to that. What type of response would depend, of course, on the specifics of that religion. The majority of my statements about Christianity could equally apply to any theism, that is, any religion that includes a creator god.

It's not about the name. It's about the attitude.

So the way a thing is said is more important than what is said?

No religious viewpoint should be advertised in a public forum. It should be a personal thing that does not extend beyond your friends, family and congregation/coven/cult/horde/D&D group.

I disagree. I have no problem with religious billboards. I usually have a good chuckle over them.

And your experiences are obviously global to everyone?

I never said they were, but the one thing that atheists tend to lack that theists have in abundance is a sense of community. These billboard campaigns are offering to promote that sort of community, where atheists can talk about their views without having to worry about being harassed or discriminated against. Why do you think that's such a bad thing? And yes, you're going to have to spell it out, because from what you've said so far, I just don't get it.

All I said was "higher power".

Please define "higher power." If it is not synonymous with "god," then I have no idea what you're talking about.

Your situation is not the global standard.

No, but it is the standard in the US. Unless you live in a big city, it's unlikely that there's an atheistic, freethought, or humanist organization anywhere near you. But in my town of about 9,000 people, there's 32 churches.

Have some respect.

Respect has to be earned.

[Mytical]

Peppergirl, you pretty much hit the nail on the head. Problem is both sides 'zealots' don't see how similar they are. Neither can just let the other believe 'whatever', they MUST convert the 'Non-believer'. If that is somebody who doesn't believe there is a god, or somebody who believes there is.

One side so firmly believes that humans have enough knowledge to dismiss anything not seen (Not counting anything they believe in that can't be seen under normal circumstances). They use theory and what they call 'common sense' (just because a lot of people believe something (common) doesn't mean it is true...or we'd still be living in a flat world) as if it was religious doctrine. "This person says 'blah blah blah', and if you don't believe it you are ignorant". Again not realizing, nor admitting, how much they sound like their polar opposite. They also tend to use the 'science is just a tool' argument as much as their polar opposite use the 'it is meant as a lesson and not to be taken literally'. Neither can admit that however. Their precious belief (Yeah, yeah I will get pelted by the atheist for daring to use that word) can not be wrong.

The polar opposite believe every word of their religious text, or what their religious leader believes. If anything doesn't quite make sense they either cite it as 'just a lesson', or such.

Both absolutely can not stand somebody having a different opinion or thought on the matter. Oh they claim differently, but they just can not leave well enough alone. They MUST prove their superiority to everybody. Their opinion is the only 'logical' one. I can be just as guilty about this as anybody else. I am just human .

Just chill. Nobody is putting a gun to your head to believe what they believe. There is a way of dealing with somebody when they try to 'spread the word' (either atheism or religion). It is called walking away. I know, radical concept right?

[Gravekeeper]

The majority of my statements about Christianity could equally apply to any theism, that is, any religion that includes a creator god.

Except they don't. They don't even apply to every faction of Christianity. This is the problem. You can't generalize like that. You admit you don't know about much else but the Christianity you grew up with, so how can you possibly apply a blanket statement to every religion based on that alone?

Even the Catholicism you grew up with is different than what I grew up with, which are both different from the Christianity my mom believes in ( Which for reference does believe in reincarnation. Her church doesn't even believe in Hell. ).

I disagree. I have no problem with religious billboards. I usually have a good chuckle over them.

Yet again, that's not the point. The point is a seperation of religion from the public sphere.

I never said they were, but the one thing that atheists tend to lack that theists have in abundance is a sense of community.

An interesting issue, I might surmise it has to do with the different ways one might arrive at the conclusion of atheism. Which decentralizes it. Its an emphasis of conclusion over teaching. I for example am similar, my beliefs are a conclusion and thus I have no one I know that shares my beliefs nor any church or other establishment. However, as my beliefs are personal, I have no need for that either. I honestly find it more interesting to talk to people with different beliefs than the same ones. As I may learn something new from them.

These billboard campaigns are offering to promote that sort of community, where atheists can talk about their views without having to worry about being harassed or discriminated against. Why do you think that's such a bad thing? And yes, you're going to have to spell it out, because from what you've said so far, I just don't get it.

I'm not sure how much clearer I can spell it out. If the billboard said "Hey, are you an Atheist? So are we! Here's our number". But they don't, they make a statement about the non-existent of God then stick a URL at the bottom. That's a much different thing. This isn't an outreach program, it's a statement of belief. A statement of belief of a religious viewpoint shouldn't be on the side of the bus. From anyone, theist or atheist.

Please define "higher power." If it is not synonymous with "god," then I have no idea what you're talking about.

Really? Higher power is just a general term for anything outside of our mortal realm so to speak. God certainly qualifies under the term, but to define it as God is extremely narrow.

No, but it is the standard in the US. Unless you live in a big city, it's unlikely that there's an atheistic, freethought, or humanist organization anywhere near you. But in my town of about 9,000 people, there's 32 churches.

That's my point, its the standard where you are, so please stop applying it as the standard to everywhere else. It's not. Besides, you have the Interwebs don't you?

Respect has to be earned.

You are completely misunderstanding again. There should be a basic level of human deceny and respect for others period. Otherwise you're just an asshole.

[Gravekeeper]

Problem is both sides 'zealots' don't see how similar they are. Neither can just let the other believe 'whatever', they MUST convert the 'Non-believer'. If that is somebody who doesn't believe there is a good, or somebody who believes there is.

Just chill. Nobody is putting a gun to your head to believe what they believe.

Precisely.

Also, I just Google'd "Crocoduck". Now my brain hurts, but I'm compelled to order a t-shirt.

[Andara Bledin]

So the way a thing is said is more important than what is said?

Sometimes, yes.

However, in this case it's about what is said, not the 'shortcut' used to say it.

I don't normally turn to the Urban Dictionary, but in this case, they've got it covered:
"Former theists or agnostics that upon shifting to atheism become as militant, preachy and annoying as Evangelical Christians. Can be spotted easily by overuse of the word 'fairytale'."

Respect has to be earned.

If you don't give it, you don't earn it.

There should be a basic level of human deceny and respect for others period. Otherwise you're just an asshole.

And this.

^-.-^

[Rebel]

Precisely.

Also, I just Google'd "Crocoduck". Now my brain hurts, but I'm compelled to order a t-shirt.

Ha!
My favourite will forever be the "Banana Theory" for God.
And to think that I used to watch him in Growing Pains when I was a kid.

I'm also working out how lazy an atheist I am. All I do is not personally believe in any God. I couldn't care less about anybody else's religion.
Unless they're a Scientologist.
And I'm a little bit against JW's, but that has to do with a bad personal experience.
And people of any religion who aggressively try to convert me can fuck right off. But I think that's a universal thing.

[Gravekeeper]

Ha!
My favourite will forever be the "Banana Theory" for God.
And to think that I used to watch him in Growing Pains when I was a kid.

Oh god, the banana theory. That was even worse.

And people of any religion who aggressively try to convert me can fuck right off. But I think that's a universal thing.

Exactly. -.-

JWs are...somewhat painful. Even worse if you know someone who is a JW. Not because they try to convert you, but because that door to door missionary work is mandatory and its the older generations that are hard core about it and force it on the younger. I had JW friends in high school, and they were utterly *mortified* to have to do it. My mom use to peg which ones were the zealots and which ones were utterly ashamed of themselves. Then invite the latter in for coffee not to talk about religion, but just to give them a break and let them pretend they were doing something. >.>

I remember one of the older zealot types forcing some handbook for teenagers on me one morning back in high school ( They woke me up at 7am on a Sunday, I was not awake and just took whatever if it would make them go away ). Later on when I woke up and actually read it, it was basically 300 pages on how if I ever touched my penis, I would spontaneously combust. And that God should fullfill all my needs for breasts. Yes, thinking about God. That's going to keep a 15 year old's mind off boobies.

[Mytical]

*hides in embarrassment* Now how in the heck could I say "Doesn't believe in a good.." when I mean God? Going to go fix it and hide now.

[Ipecac Drano]

Wait, did you just argue *for* him being the son of God?

Uh, no...

Frankly, no it doesn't. Once you leave that primary sphere of Judeo-Christian-Islam things get quite a bit different.

They have a lot more in common with the Abrahamic religions than you think.

Also, things like Hinduism or Buddhism aren't obscure things no one has ever heard of.

I never said that no one had heard of them. I said that most of us Westerners would know more about the Abrahamic religions than the Eastern ones.

[Gravekeeper]

Uh, no...

Whew, ok, that would have been....weird. -.-

They have a lot more in common with the Abrahamic religions than you think.

Such as? Most eastern religions err on the side of polytheism, reincarnation and some nature worship. Or can be alltogether godless philosophies.

I never said that no one had heard of them. I said that most of us Westerners would know more about the Abrahamic religions than the Eastern ones.

Er, I was responding too: "What she had said isn't just about Xtianity; it applies to other religions as well." and you did say "If I were to comment on some obscure religion it would be a bit more difficult to discuss. ".

Bah, anyway, point is you can't brush stroke all of religion based on Christianity. -.-

[Ghel]

One side so firmly believes that humans have enough knowledge to dismiss anything not seen (Not counting anything they believe in that can't be seen under normal circumstances). They use theory and what they call 'common sense' (just because a lot of people believe something (common) doesn't mean it is true...or we'd still be living in a flat world) as if it was religious doctrine. "This person says 'blah blah blah', and if you don't believe it you are ignorant". Again not realizing, nor admitting, how much they sound like their polar opposite.

You're right. Any atheist who says something like this is being stupid. The reason science works isn't because some authority said so, it works because it builds a working model of the universe that can be used to make accurate predictions. That working model is based on observation (which isn't just what's "seen"), evidence, and experimentation. If a scientific theory doesn't make accurate predictions, it is revised or discarded. How often do you see that in religion?

You admit you don't know about much else but the Christianity you grew up with, so how can you possibly apply a blanket statement to every religion based on that alone?

What do you expect me to do? Investigate every god that humans have ever worshiped before I declare myself an atheist?

A statement of belief of a religious viewpoint shouldn't be on the side of the bus. From anyone, theist or atheist.

You're certainly entitled to that point of view. But here in the US, we have this thing commonly called "separation of church and state." In this case, it means that it would be unconstitutional to make a law prohibiting advertising based solely on its religious content. And that's something I agree with.

There are privately-owned bus companies that have chosen not to place any religious or atheistic advertisements on their buses. And as long as the policy is executed fairly and evenly, I don't have a problem with it.

Really? Higher power is just a general term for anything outside of our mortal realm so to speak. God certainly qualifies under the term, but to define it as God is extremely narrow.

Are you talking about something that's supernatural? Does it interact with the natural realm, or is it in its own realm? If it doesn't interact with the natural realm, why should we care?

That's my point, its the standard where you are, so please stop applying it as the standard to everywhere else. It's not. Besides, you have the Interwebs don't you?

First, most of the atheist advertisements we've been talking about have been located in the US, so it's only natural that they're advertising to a US audience. Second, human beings need personal interaction, which can't be provided by the internet.

I don't normally turn to the Urban Dictionary, but in this case, they've got it covered:
"Former theists or agnostics that upon shifting to atheism become as militant, preachy and annoying as Evangelical Christians. Can be spotted easily by overuse of the word 'fairytale'."

I suppose they think "legend," "myth," "superstition," and "fantasy" are overused, too? How about "unfounded," "unsupported," and "contradictory"?

[Rapscallion]

You are completely misunderstanding again. There should be a basic level of human deceny and respect for others period. Otherwise you're just an asshole.

No matter what those people do? We have a blanket ban on slamming religions on CS, but I make special exeption for Phelps and his gang. This is partly because I wouldn't expect anyone to be in a position where they had to appear to defend them, but also because they've proved they don't deserve respect.

Rapscallion

[Ipecac Drano]

Such as? Most eastern religions err on the side of polytheism, reincarnation and some nature worship. Or can be alltogether godless philosophies.

Blind faith, disembodied beings (in some cases)...

Er, I was responding too: "What she had said isn't just about Xtianity; it applies to other religions as well." and you did say "If I were to comment on some obscure religion it would be a bit more difficult to discuss. ".

Again, it's not about whether we know such religions exist; it's about what we know about them.

Bah, anyway, point is you can't brush stroke all of religion based on Christianity. -.-

No, just the things they share with it.