Don't Blaspheme!!!

[DesignFox]

Well, Slyt, perhaps the celebration could go on for the rest of the company, but you would be excused from attending. Or maybe some other compromise could be reached.

Part of your manager's job would be to find a suitable solution for both the secular partiers and yourself. But I think it would be unnacceptable for one person to kill joy the whole operation because of a misunderstanding or a difference in belief.

I mean, as an example, we had a kid in my elementary school who was a Jehovah's Witness. He could not participate in ANY parties of any kind or celebrate any holidays in class. Did we all stop decorating and celebrating because of one person's belief? No. He was excused from the classroom. I always felt bad for him to be left out like that, but that was his parent's choice in not letting him celebrate.

Why should all the other kids not be allowed to have a celebration of their beliefs because his belief was different?

He wasn't purposely excluded...it was a choice based on his parent's religious standing.

This same thinking always annoys me when it comes to decorating for the holidays. Why should the kids who believe in Santa not be able to decorate their classroom door with a Christmas tree, presents and a fat man in a red suit? Because the Jewish kids feel left out? Um...so put a Menorah and Dreidel up on your door then...why is it such a big deal?

Why do people get so bent out of shape over simple things rather than accepting them with the spirit in which they are intended?

(I'm not saying you necessarily do...this is rhetorical)

[Slytovhand]

(keeping in the spirit of rhetoric...)

Well.. firstly, using Halloween as the current example still, Halloween isn't a significant event down here. So it's not really a big celebration that people are having rained on. A couple of years ago, the manager sent an email asking people what they should do as some form of activity for October (they were doing stuff to increase morale), and it was decided to make it a Halloween theme....

For your first suggestion, we were talking about a workplace (a call centre). 'Excusing' someone from 'attending' would be very inappropriate - unless they wanted to pay someone for taking the day off....

I'm a bit lost on the christmas line...because the tree, fat man and presents aren't part of a religious festival which jewish kids should be excluded from. Besides - there is Hanukkah (with different symbologies). But that's me and a specific example....

The weird thing here is that no religious festivals are 'celebrated' in this call centre. We have a range of different religions amongst the staff, yet the closest to it is 'christmas' - and i put that in ' ' because it's not the religious version, but the secular version (ie - tree and gifts).

This issue is a bit of a general one which we do all have to submit to the whims of individuals (as per my OP on the subject). Consider 'offensive' material at work. Pictures of naked women are a form of harassment - even if no females work at that place (assuming that a woman makes a complaint). Religion and beliefs is just another area in which it rears its head.


Slyt

[DesignFox]

hmm. Well, put into that context, it bears some thinking about it. Like I said, maybe the manager could come up with a better solution that fits everybody.

I guess my point is that we can't always make everyone happy. Someone is always going to feel left out or offended by something.

I guess the question is where we draw the line...and if someone approaches you and says it bothers them, then I guess it is the responsibility of the group to try not to make that person feel unwelcome.

My Christmas analogy came out because when I was young, we would have door decorating contests for the holidays. At one point when I got older, we were forbidden to put up anything of a religious nature. No Jesus, No crosses, No Santa, No Christmas Trees, No Reindeer, No Menorahs...nothing that could in anyway be associated with any religion... only "winter" scenes were allowed.

The whole idea was that someone might be offended or feel uncomfortable if their religion wasn't represented. Well...if there are no Jews in my class, why would anybody think to put up a Menorah? Conversely, if there were no Christians in the class, why would any Jewish child think to re-create a Baby Jesus scene?

What's offensive about that?

My point, I think anyway, was that no one else in the office is Pagan. So why would they think anything was wrong with what they were doing? Why is religion such a big deal?

I mean, I can see the sexual harrassment argument, except that some men might also be made uncomfortable if naked photos are hung up on the bulletin board. And it can be argued that naked images of women are a form of objectification. How can you work with someone if you're wondering if all they're really picturing is you without your clothes on?

Well, I have to think some more...maybe someone will have better words for the point I'm trying to make...

[Sylvia727]

Ok - getting away from history, and into the here and now, and also a bit more closer to the topic raised... If I'm at work, and it's October (or earlier), and work is deciding to put on a halloween theme, what if I object on the basis of the above argument - that it is a mockery of my beliefs? After all - there are the whole 'ghosts and spirits and stuff' that comes associated with it (not unlike togas, thorns and stigmata of a mocked Easter...). If I object, is it therefore 'fair' for management to use the historical line Sylvia used above as a way for them to ignore my issue?

I'm a bit lost on the christmas line...because the tree, fat man and presents aren't part of a religious festival which jewish kids should be excluded from. Besides - there is Hanukkah (with different symbologies). But that's me and a specific example....

The weird thing here is that no religious festivals are 'celebrated' in this call centre. We have a range of different religions amongst the staff, yet the closest to it is 'christmas' - and i put that in ' ' because it's not the religious version, but the secular version (ie - tree and gifts).

Do you see a difference between these two? Why is okay for your workplace to mock my religion but not yours? The jolly red man giving out presents under the tree has nothing more to do with the "true spirit of Christmas" than silly costumes and free candy has to do with the "true spirit of Samhain".

Which is my second argument for secular Halloween. No one associates it with a religion anymore. I'm fine with secular holidays. I don't feel that they detract from religious holy days, even when they're on the same day and supposedly celebrate the same things.

---

It doesn't look like my "family consecrated values" argument is going down too well, but I can't say anything that hasn't been said before. Yeah, my religion celebrating the same thing a different way makes it a different holy day. Actually, I really think it makes it the same holy day, but either way one shouldn't be shut down in favor of another. That's my opinion. You don't have to share it.

[DesignFox]

<snip>
Which is my second argument for secular Halloween. No one associates it with a religion anymore. I'm fine with secular holidays. I don't feel that they detract from religious holy days, even when they're on the same day and supposedly celebrate the same things.

<snip> Yeah, my religion celebrating the same thing a different way makes it a different holy day. Actually, I really think it makes it the same holy day, but either way one shouldn't be shut down in favor of another.

That's better. Thank you Sylvia.

What's wrong wtih me celebrating my way, AND you celebrating your way?

It may be tricky in public places, but ultimately if we're all coming together in good faith and good spirits, what's the big deal?

[radiocerk]

Halloween...

There is at least one Halloween "symbol" I take insane offense to, which was always intended as a mockery.

The pointy-hat, green skinned, wart covered witch on the broom. Put that together with the owl, bat, toad and cat (which are supposed to be her familiars) and it makes me REALLY unpopular when it comes to decorating time. As for it being in the spirit of fun, or some such nonsense, I don't crucify things in my fornt yard at Easter.

And the bunnies and eggs were ours first. As was the "Christmas" tree and wreath, and a WHOLE lot of other symbols that not only have the Christian majority embraced and made theirs (which I think is cute actually, and don't mind in the least), they get butt-hurt whenever anyone makes references to their origins, or tries to describe them in any other way.

There is a reason I stop reading the opinion section of the paper during November and December. Every time I hear a "war on Christmas" description, I want to smack someone.

[Sylvia727]

There is at least one Halloween "symbol" I take insane offense to, which was always intended as a mockery.

The pointy-hat, green skinned, wart covered witch on the broom.

I can't argue with that at all. It's as much a stereotype as an offensive racial image. The only (very shaky) defense those people can claim is ignorance. Most people don't associate the Puritan "congress with the beast" women with the New Age hippy skyclad Wiccans, and they don't associate either with their next door neighbor.

they get butt-hurt whenever anyone makes references to their origins, or tries to describe them in any other way.

I just have to laugh at that. I was raised Christian, but any text one picks up on the origins of Christianity or Christian traditions will cover at the very least 3-5 non-Christian items that predate Christianity. In other words, there's no excuse for ignorance except sheer naivete.

There is a reason I stop reading the opinion section of the paper during November and December. Every time I hear a "war on Christmas" description, I want to smack someone.

Some of these articules manage to make their points in a tasteful way, decrying how instead of multicultural we've become noncultural. Others are just hateful bigots with nothing better to whine about. And yeah, I want to smack some of them too.

[DesignFox]

I think society is changing the view of the witch. More and more you have "pretty" witch costumes and decorations to combat the "ugly" witch pictures and costumes.

I always think of the Wizard of Oz and just think of it as the difference between a "good" witch and a "bad" witch.

And there was an episode of Bewitched where Samantha had a discussion with her husband over the "ugly" witch portrayal. (and how old is that show?)

So...I don't think people are that ignorant, anymore. Things are changing. People are realizing that a "witch" isn't a bad person.

EDIT: and now I think the word witch sounds funny because I've used it too many times in one post...

[Slytovhand]

Thanks Radioclerk, that sort of helps to sum things up a bit for me as well, certainly as it pertains to that specific 'holiday'.

If they're putting up witches everywhere, surely it denotes that it is a 'religious' festival? (well - no - probably not....) And one that isn't actually shared by those who are doing the celebrating - thus it's not a 'secular' one at all. Secular is Australia Day (which has it's issues down here...), Labour Day, Mother's and Father's Day etc...Your Thanksgiving would fit in nicely.

Yes - I do think society needs more 'secular' celebrations. Either that, or we need to fully embrace the religious ones more wholistically. And explain where all those things come from that don't otherwise make sense, but still respect where they came from. ie - "here's your chocolate bunny and egg, in memory of the spirit of Spring and the Goddess Eostre, and remember how that represents renewal and rebirth - when you go to church to celebrate your lords resurrection." Or, to get back to Sylvia's point on the other page, the jolly man in red handing out presents under the tree are all pagan motifs, so in one sense there isn't a mockery going on (other than towards the traditional pagans...). But it does confuse the heck out of me what christians are doing with all that stuff. The gift-giving I can understand (gold, frankincense and myrrh), but the rest of it?? Is it ok to mock your own religion??

Oh - DesignFox...

So...I don't think people are that ignorant, anymore. Things are changing. People are realizing that a "witch" isn't a bad person.

Ah...if only that were true...<sigh> Trust me, many still are....I'm in a forum called UniPagan, and I've heard of the advertising materials and posters for a UniPagan group at (strangely) the unis, but those posters get grafittied or ripped apart or down. And this in an arena of 'higher education' where one might expect a higher level of tolerance.

On that line, most of the witches I know you wouldn't pick in a crowd (which makes it a bit difficult when you're looking out for them)

[DesignFox]

I guess I'm just in sheltered Slyt. I've always lived in a fairly tolerant and diverse state, and I just don't "see" the evils people around me see.

I guess it's because I'm so tolerant of people overall. I have my prejudices...but I keep them in check and try to judge people on their own merit. I don't really get offended easily and sort of live and let live.

Maybe I just don't see what all the hoo-pla is when people get upset over certain things...because I'm a bit harder to upset? And I'm not a part of any group or religion that has traditionally (at least in recent history) been oppressed.

(well, except that I'm female, but I like to think we've worked out most of those issues, at least in my country)

*shrug*

That said- I know better than to hang up pictures of "witches" around Pagan people...I don't go knocking on my Christian friend's door dressed as Jesus...and I don't do things to insult my Jewish friends....I use my sense.

I DO think people are getting better overall. The witch issue has been addressed, and I do see changes being made. We have "happy holidays" now instead of just saying Merry Christmas. The malls get decorated for multiple holidays instead of just one. And people are granted days off based on their religious background (I had a Wiccan manager who needed certain days off for the solstice, etc.)

Again, maybe that's just been my experience. But I see things changing. It won't happen overnight. But it is happenening.

I don't understand the militant, "OMG you CAN'T do THAT! I'm SO OFFENDED!" attitude...

Overall, I think a lot more people need to be a lot less sensitive.

[Sylvia727]

If they're putting up witches everywhere, surely it denotes that it is a 'religious' festival?

Witchcraft and magic are still heavy themes in fantasy. Look at the Harry Potter books if you want an idea of how modern society perceives witches. If 'witch' became strictly a religious term, I myself would have to throw away maybe a third of my novels.

This just adds to the perception of Halloween symbols. People put up the stereotypical 'witch' image because they associate it with fantastical stories and myths, not modern day religions. I'm not saying it's not offensive, merely that people don't know it's offensive. It's pointless to blame them for their ignorance. Raise awareness, because they don't understand why you're offended, and will only get defensive if confronted.

And explain where all those things come from that don't otherwise make sense, but still respect where they came from. ie - "here's your chocolate bunny and egg, in memory of the spirit of Spring and the Goddess Eostre, and remember how that represents renewal and rebirth - when you go to church to celebrate your lords resurrection."

Why do I have to mention someone else's god in order to worship mine? What's wrong with saying "The chocolate bunnies and eggs represent renewal and rebirth"? I'm aware of the origins of my religion, as many others are, but that should hardly be a requirement. I don't think it makes me inconsiderate if I fail to mention details about the origins of certain traditions. I don't have to be educated about the history of my religion to be a good ____ist or a good citizen or a good neighbor.

Or, to get back to Sylvia's point on the other page, the jolly man in red handing out presents under the tree are all pagan motifs, so in one sense there isn't a mockery going on (other than towards the traditional pagans...). But it does confuse the heck out of me what christians are doing with all that stuff. The gift-giving I can understand (gold, frankincense and myrrh), but the rest of it??

What are Christians doing with all that stuff? Besides celebrating family, love, the birth of hope of salvation, togetherness, and the corporate dollar? I don't understand your question. Are you asking for a detailed justification of each Xian tradition?

Is it ok to mock your own religion??

I don't think religion should be mocked at any point. It is a sacred and personal part of many or most people. But good-natured and friendly-intended ribbing could be okay no matter what religious persuasion the ribber was of.

Oh - DesignFox...
Ah...if only that were true...<sigh> Trust me, many still are....I'm in a forum called UniPagan, and I've heard of the advertising materials and posters for a UniPagan group at (strangely) the unis, but those posters get grafittied or ripped apart or down. And this in an arena of 'higher education' where one might expect a higher level of tolerance.

Yup. The Gay-Straight-Alliance on my university put up posters promoting homo/het equality, and all 500 were torn down with 2 hours. Worse, campus security and university administration refused to do more than a token investigation, despite an attorney's testimony that this was a hate crime and could get prison time for the offenders. Worse still, the school newspaper published an editorial which essentially said, "get over it, faggots."

Intolerance: still alive and kicking.

Maybe I just don't see what all the hoo-pla is when people get upset over certain things...because I'm a bit harder to upset? And I'm not a part of any group or religion that has traditionally (at least in recent history) been oppressed.

That could well be my problem. I'm not seeing the extent of the damage because I'm not experiencing it. I think I'm seeing most of it, but without walking a mile in a pagan's shoes, I'll never know.

Overall, I think a lot more people need to be a lot less sensitive.

I think people need to be more sensitive to others' perspectives and to others' motives. As the offending party, I need to understand where the other person is coming from and make reasonable accomodations for them. And as the offended party, I need to understand why the offender is doing whatever, and make reasonable accomodations for them.

I think the primary issue is communication. Individual groups of people need to work out what is acceptable for them. For example, I can fulfill my magical fantasies by dressing up as a sorceress, but until you tell my witch costume is offensive to you *in a polite and nonhostile manner*, I won't know to make the switch.

[Slytovhand]

Witchcraft and magic are still heavy themes in fantasy. Look at the Harry Potter books if you want an idea of how modern society perceives witches. If 'witch' became strictly a religious term, I myself would have to throw away maybe a third of my novels.

This just adds to the perception of Halloween symbols. People put up the stereotypical 'witch' image because they associate it with fantastical stories and myths, not modern day religions. I'm not saying it's not offensive, merely that people don't know it's offensive. It's pointless to blame them for their ignorance. Raise awareness, because they don't understand why you're offended, and will only get defensive if confronted.

True, but in this age, and with all the media around, witchcraft is at least been seen as a religion now, rather than merely a bunch of loons (or devil-worshipers). Yeah - educate is good - when people choose to listen. Some do, some don't. OH - as for HP, I do recall all the hoo-ha about the fundies wanting the books all banned....<sigh> some people....

Why do I have to mention someone else's god in order to worship mine? What's wrong with saying "The chocolate bunnies and eggs represent renewal and rebirth"? I'm aware of the origins of my religion, as many others are, but that should hardly be a requirement. I don't think it makes me inconsiderate if I fail to mention details about the origins of certain traditions. I don't have to be educated about the history of my religion to be a good ____ist or a good citizen or a good neighbor.



What are Christians doing with all that stuff? Besides celebrating family, love, the birth of hope of salvation, togetherness, and the corporate dollar? I don't understand your question. Are you asking for a detailed justification of each Xian tradition?

No - not a requirement, nor a justification. I was just putting that in because you mentioned not getting the jolly man in reference to christmas - which neither of us gets.... so it was rhetorical.

I don't think religion should be mocked at any point. It is a sacred and personal part of many or most people. But good-natured and friendly-intended ribbing could be okay no matter what religious persuasion the ribber was of.

Damn..I forgot what that was in reference to.... other than maybe cos Xtians are doing large amounts of pagan worship (bunnies and eggs stuff).

Yup. The Gay-Straight-Alliance on my university put up posters promoting homo/het equality, and all 500 were torn down with 2 hours. Worse, campus security and university administration refused to do more than a token investigation, despite an attorney's testimony that this was a hate crime and could get prison time for the offenders. Worse still, the school newspaper published an editorial which essentially said, "get over it, faggots."

Intolerance: still alive and kicking.

Holy Crap!

That could well be my problem. I'm not seeing the extent of the damage because I'm not experiencing it. I think I'm seeing most of it, but without walking a mile in a pagan's shoes, I'll never know.

I usually wear sneakers.. there more comfy

I think people need to be more sensitive to others' perspectives and to others' motives. As the offending party, I need to understand where the other person is coming from and make reasonable accomodations for them. And as the offended party, I need to understand why the offender is doing whatever, and make reasonable accomodations for them.

I think the primary issue is communication. Individual groups of people need to work out what is acceptable for them. For example, I can fulfill my magical fantasies by dressing up as a sorceress, but until you tell my witch costume is offensive to you *in a polite and nonhostile manner*, I won't know to make the switch.

Words of Wisdom

Oh - I just had a thought.. years ago, I was trying to talk about the significance of various beliefs to non-followers, and I said that Buddha was to Buddhists as JC was to Xtians. The Xtians I was 'explaining' this to took masses of offence, cos JC is the son of God, and Buddha was just a man.

What would be your thoughts on what I was trying to explain??

[Slytovhand]

I guess I'm just in sheltered Slyt. I've always lived in a fairly tolerant and diverse state, and I just don't "see" the evils people around me see.

I guess it's because I'm so tolerant of people overall. I have my prejudices...but I keep them in check and try to judge people on their own merit. I don't really get offended easily and sort of live and let live.

Maybe I just don't see what all the hoo-pla is when people get upset over certain things...because I'm a bit harder to upset? And I'm not a part of any group or religion that has traditionally (at least in recent history) been oppressed.

(well, except that I'm female, but I like to think we've worked out most of those issues, at least in my country)

*shrug*

That said- I know better than to hang up pictures of "witches" around Pagan people...I don't go knocking on my Christian friend's door dressed as Jesus...and I don't do things to insult my Jewish friends....I use my sense.

I DO think people are getting better overall. The witch issue has been addressed, and I do see changes being made. We have "happy holidays" now instead of just saying Merry Christmas. The malls get decorated for multiple holidays instead of just one. And people are granted days off based on their religious background (I had a Wiccan manager who needed certain days off for the solstice, etc.)

Again, maybe that's just been my experience. But I see things changing. It won't happen overnight. But it is happenening.

I don't understand the militant, "OMG you CAN'T do THAT! I'm SO OFFENDED!" attitude...

Overall, I think a lot more people need to be a lot less sensitive.

I suspect that we draw people to us who share similar attitudes and outlooks. At the very least, if we meet people who have vastly different attitudes, then we tend not to go out of our way to hang around them. We here at CS tend to be more...openminded and respectful of others...perhaps cos we know what it's like to be on the receiving end.

Cool on that manager!!! I've introduced a manager to the coven that (last I heard) she later joined I don't recall taking time off for it though.

[Sylvia727]

True, but in this age, and with all the media around, witchcraft is at least been seen as a religion now, rather than merely a bunch of loons (or devil-worshipers).

It is seen as a religion, but most people don't make the connection. Wiccan =/= magical hag, in other words.

Oh - I just had a thought.. years ago, I was trying to talk about the significance of various beliefs to non-followers, and I said that Buddha was to Buddhists as JC was to Xtians. The Xtians I was 'explaining' this to took masses of offence, cos JC is the son of God, and Buddha was just a man.

What would be your thoughts on what I was trying to explain??

You should have elaborated further and the Xians should have shut up and let you. In my experience, it usually takes half an hour before an innocent, well-intentioned slight can be resolved. One person starts out saying what they meant, the other says what they heard, the first person clarifies, the second person says why s/he found this hurtful, the first person reassures the second that s/he would never want to be hurtful, and then they dance around for another ten minutes reassuring each other that they're still friends. Or maybe that's just my friends. But it works, I assure you.

From what I understand of Buddhism, Buddha was just the first guy to 'awaken'. He's not anyone particularly special; he did it right and his advice might be worth listening to. Whereas Jesus is the Messiah, the Son of God, and God himself, and he should be worshipped and obeyed. It might be more apt to say that Buddha is like a prophet of Judeo-Christian-Islamic traditions, in that his advice will help immensely but isn't the be-all and end-all. (Excepting Mohammad in Islamic traditions, AFAIK).

[DesignFox]

I suspect that we draw people to us who share similar attitudes and outlooks.

That could be, too.

I tend to be very open and accepting of other people, so I guess I just draw in other people who share the same attitudes.

And, I do try not to hurt the feelings of others. If a person brings something to my attention in a non-confrontational manner, I certainly try to avoid causing them distress. Usually, we can come to a compromise.

If some fanatic gets all in my face with the "I'm so persecuted" "you can't do this because of ____" line, I roll my eyes at them.

I like to understand as much as I can about other people, but I would expect that same courtesy from the other side of the fence.

It's like I said about people being overly sensitive, which Sylvia elaborated upon (and that is what I was intending to say...)

We need to communicate and understand each other, rather than getting up in arms right away. (and, IMO, a lot of what people get up in arms about- religiously speaking- is stupid shit).