My Problem With Biblical Literalism

[Rapscallion]

It's still not the fault of the tool, it's a fault in the people.

If religion were gone tomorrow, they'd just turn to one of any number of other banners, such as politics, or they'd make up new ones to lead the willing to do their bidding. And there has never been any shortage of those.

^-.-^

They already do. However, I think it worth dismantling those tools that are flawed and false. They'll still be used until they're removed.

The counter to all the atrocities commited in the name of religion is all the 'good'. I don't accept that it's necessary to ascribe acts of charity to some invisible friend.

Rapscallion

[Hyena Dandy]

Then why do we ascribe the atrocities committed in the name of religion to religion rather than people being people, if we're going to say that the people who do charity, art, whatever in the name of their religion to just people being good?

I say if we blame things like the Crusades and 9/11 on Religion, we have to do the same for religious charities and the like.

[Rapscallion]

Then why do we ascribe the atrocities committed in the name of religion to religion rather than people being people, if we're going to say that the people who do charity, art, whatever in the name of their religion to just people being good?

I say if we blame things like the Crusades and 9/11 on Religion, we have to do the same for religious charities and the like.

That's pretty much what I said above, though somewhat more eloquently. I do some things that would generally be regarded as philanthropical or charitable, but I don't have any belief that my motives are down to an invisible, supernatural being.

Rapscallion

[Hyena Dandy]

I was confused. I was under the impression that what you were saying was that people doing bad things for religion are evidence religion as bad, while good things would happen anyway, doing away with religion would stop the bad ones.

I was confused. Of course I would not say YOU are motivated by religion in all your charitable actions. I would not say that every good thing you do is motivated by God's hand in your life. That would be insulting, inaccurate, and just plain bad theology.

I was just saying that you can't wave off good actions done for people's religious beliefs, and yet blame religion for the bad ones. Though I evidently misunderstood you, and that was what you were saying. I apologize.

[Rapscallion]

I blame the institution of religion for wars and atrocities, not the claimed deities.

I attritbute some of what we would call 'good' as being a result of religious teachings. I see no reason we couldn't and wouldn't do those things without religion.

Any clearer?

Rapscallion

[Hyena Dandy]

A little, though I'm still a bit fuzzy. I want to make sure we're on the same page because I hate to have a debate with someone when I'm not a hundred percent sure.

I see no reason that charities wouldn't happen without religion, but I also see no reason that wars and atrocities wouldn't happen anyway.

I can't say that religion has made the world better or worse, because I have not seen a world without it. I can say its made MY life better, and that I would be a much less content, happy person if I were not religious. And I can say that because previously I wasn't.

[Rapscallion]

I see no reason that charities wouldn't happen without religion,

They do.

but I also see no reason that wars and atrocities wouldn't happen anyway.

I'd like to see one less method in the world for convincing uninformed, deluded, or stupid people to die for manipulators and somehow think they're doing good in the process.

Rapscallion

[Hyena Dandy]

They do.

Indeed, I was agreeing with you. I was also saying that some charities do happen because of the religious beliefs of those who run them. That the good they do cannot be discounted simply because someone else might do it anyway.

I'd like to see one less method in the world for convincing uninformed, deluded, or stupid people to die for manipulators and somehow think they're doing good in the process.

Again, but what about the good that religious organizations do?

If you take away the tool to convince people to do bad things, you're also taking away a good tool to convince them to do good things.

[Andara Bledin]

If you do away with a method, then you lose all the good with the bad. All of the good that people do that they lay at the feet of religion would go away to the same degree as the bad.

You can't handwave and say that all the good will still be done but the bad won't.

^-.-^

[BlaqueKatt]

If you do away with a method, then you lose all the good with the bad. All of the good that people do that they lay at the feet of religion would go away to the same degree as the bad.

if the bad outweighs the good, as it certainly does in some groups, is that necessarily a bad thing?

And I'm sorry but no amount of good the Catholic church can ever do, will EVER make up for KNOWINLY enabling pedophiles to continue to have access to more victims.

I know of no other group that does this, and the excuse they all give for not allowing the perpetrator to be brought to justice and instead move them out of the jurisdiction, sometimes promoting them to a higher position in order to do so, is "it would hurt the church".

So does a few thousand children being raped and molested, with the criminals being hidden under the robes of religion justify allowing these groups to continue to exist, just because they "do some good"?

What if the KKK "did some good", or NAMBLA, what if Westboro baptist opened up a homeless shelter? I hate to say it but at least Westoboro Baptist has come out against the Catholic church fr it's sex abuse scandals, very few other churches have publicly denounced it, I've heard of zero Catholic churches saying the abusers should be punished alongside those that hid them. Which isn't surprising as the Catholic church helped Nazis escape justice as well-but "they do some good" so I guess it's ok, we should just look away because of that.

"Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities."
- Voltaire

[AdminAssistant]

It's pretty sad to think that the only reason people do good is so they get a "Get Out of Hell" card. I would like to think that philanthropy and charity would continue without religion, and would actually be more effective since it wouldn't be concerned with proselytization or following silly moral doctrines (like not using condoms to stop the spread of STDs and AIDs and forbidding poor families from using birth control, so that they don't have children that they can't even feed.)

[Hyena Dandy]

I take offense to the idea that the religious are only charitable to get out of hell.

I'm charitable because I think its the right thing to do. Part of this comes from my religious beliefs, but its not from "Don't want to end up in hell."

Why do people think that everything a religious person does is to get out of hell? There are many atheists who have proved that atheists can be good hearted, and compassionate people, despite not having a religion. So why can't we be charitable and good hearted despite having one?

[Andara Bledin]

Which isn't surprising as the Catholic church helped Nazis escape justice as well-but "they do some good" so I guess it's ok, we should just look away because of that.

This is fine if the world were black and white, but it's an excessively and absurdly simplistic view. I'd like to believe we're all more mature than this.

The Catholic Church, though not necessarily the faith itself, has serious issues. Those issues should no more be overlooked than any other atrocious behavior.

However, that doesn't require that we pitch the baby with the bathwater.

^-.-^

[Crazedclerkthe2nd]

It's pretty sad to think that the only reason people do good is so they get a "Get Out of Hell" card. I would like to think that philanthropy and charity would continue without religion, and would actually be more effective since it wouldn't be concerned with proselytization or following silly moral doctrines (like not using condoms to stop the spread of STDs and AIDs and forbidding poor families from using birth control, so that they don't have children that they can't even feed.)

I have only been a Christian since 2007, but for all my life before then I was a hard working generous individual who tried hard to be a good person. You don't have to be a Christian to enjoy doing good.

[Hyena Dandy]

I have only been a Christian since 2007, but for all my life before then I was a hard working generous individual who tried hard to be a good person. You don't have to be a Christian to enjoy doing good.

Yes, but my point was that there's no reason to assume Christians would NOT enjoy doing good