My Problem With Biblical Literalism

[Rapscallion]

There's also no reason to allow the guilt trip that is religion to be the reason for doing good. Why base something that benefits others on a false foundation?

Rapscallion

[Ghel]

I'm charitable because I think its the right thing to do. Part of this comes from my religious beliefs, but its not from "Don't want to end up in hell."

If you do good due to empathy, instead of your religion's threat of negative consequences if you don't (or positive consequences if you do), then any statements you may make that the good done in the name of your religion is because of your religion would be hypocritical.

Empathy is a human condition. All humans experience it (other than some sociopaths). Religion is not needed to inspire empathy.

[Andara Bledin]

There's also no reason to allow the guilt trip that is religion to be the reason for doing good. Why base something that benefits others on a false foundation?

I don't. But a lot of people do. A lot of people look for something to tell them how to live because it's easier than thinking. Among the possible options, religions isn't the demon a lot of people try to make it out to be.

Some people, such as many of us in this thread, prefer to write our own rulebooks, but for a lot of others, that's like re-inventing the wheel when they can just take the cliffs notes from whatever faith they follow and go from there.

^-.-^

[Gravekeeper]

Among the possible options, religions isn't the demon a lot of people try to make it out to be.

I think one problem specifically, and perhaps the associated mood right now in history, is because of the rise of the "Christian Nation" shit in the US combined with the ongoing fear mongering of Islam in the US. Like it or not, Christianity in the US is being associated with ignorance, stupidity and racism. While Islam conversely is being blamed for every single evil in the world.

Sad as it is, I don't think Christ when I think Christianity these days, I think of all the shit going on in the US and how staggering idiotic it is looking at it from the outside in. It's honestly kind of surreal. If Jesus actually did come back now, he'd be resoundingly rejected in the US by those claiming to be his most faithful and labelled as a elitist socialist liberal. I just find it stunning that so many people claim to do what they do in the name of Jesus, yet blantantly have absolutely no fucking idea what it was Jesus taught.

It's really aggravating, and I think that frustration is really building up in recent years because of how stunningly blatant some of it is in the US these days. People are getting sick of hearing all this stuff done in the name of organized religion. The US started polarizing really badly after 9/11, Bush spent 8 years *encouraging* it, now its completely fractured to the point where politics has become sports and religion has become politics. People root for the home team regardless of who they are or what they do and now one side seriously believes Jesus is their mascot.

It takes a level of cognitive dissonance I just can't comprehend.

[Andara Bledin]

One thing that is difficult to do is to separate the religion from the church.

Once any organization grows beyond a certain point, it falls prey to corruption and an inability for those at the top to view those at the bottom as people as opposed to numbers on a spreadsheet. This applies to churches the same as any corporation or government.

I've never had much use for churches. I don't require a middleman to tell me how to think.

And those of you telling me how not to think are just as bad.

^-.-^

[RecoveringKinkoid]

And those of you telling me how not to think are just as bad.

^-.-^

Thank you. I could not agree more with this sentiment.

I hear atheists complaining all the time about "other people's beliefs getting shoved down my throat."

I have had people from other denominations do that to me. It sucks.

However, more often, I've had atheists doing it to me. It sucks, too. Do they do it more overall? Can't say. I know they do it to me personally more.

And Gravekeeper...while we are on different sides of the fence on this one...I couldn't agree more with your last post, either. I once heard "if Christ saw the shit going on in His name, he'd never stop throwing up. "

Yeah. Jesus wept.

[Hyena Dandy]

However, more often, I've had atheists doing it to me. It sucks, too. Do they do it more overall? Can't say. I know they do it to me personally more.

I get accused of being intolerant and all sorts of things for being Christian. I have never told anyone they're going to hell. I have never told anyone what they're doing or believe is wrong. I'm told I'm wrong. I'm told I'm closed-minded. I'm told my faith is evil. I've never said that to anyone else.

[radiocerk]

A lot of atheists kinda go overboard on the Christian types, primarily, I think, as a form of revenge. For years, I have been told that what I think and believe is wrong, that I am going to Hell, that they're just trying to help me, that God loves me, blah blah blah. And the temptation is strong to return that message in kind to my persecutors. I've lived with having an "unpopular religious outlook" for a long while and I have grown past that gut-instinct.

A lot of the most vocal and belligerent atheists are probably relatively new to it. Much like the Christian who thinks they are saving me from eternal torment in a lake of fire (meh), the atheist is trying to help you break the chains of delusion your religion foists upon you (or something like that).

Trying to convert anyone, on either side is annoying behavior, and no one should do it, no matter what you think the benefits to your audience will be.

[Andara Bledin]

Trying to convert anyone, on either side is annoying behavior, and no one should do it, no matter what you think the benefits to your audience will be.

Precisely.

^-.-^

[Rapscallion]

As I mentioned earlier, I'm more laid back over it. However, from this perspective I see plenty of having religion 'shoved down my throat'.

On my drive to a chum's house, I regularly see roadside adverts telling me I should accpet jesus as my saviour. I see such on buildings (usually churches, but not always) as I walk through town. I don't have a TV, but what I have seen spats of at other peoples' houses is that there's usually some religious group or other trying to get noticed.

A while back a humanist advert went on buses saying, "There's probably no god, so get on with enjoying your lives."

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2008/10...s_athiest_bus/

Couldn't move for commentary on the radio for outraged of allah/jehovah etc wanting to say their piece about it, yet when religious groups do the same there's not an eyelid batted.

It's not one-sided. It's actually a pretty new thing for atheists to be this outspoken en masse from what I understand.

Rapscallion

[Boozy]

I think a poll would find that nearly every adult has been approached by a religious proponent on the street and asked to accept Jesus as their saviour (or Krishna, Allah, etc).

I think you would be hard pressed to find many people who have been approached by atheists asking them to renounce their faith.

Especially outside of the internet. The vast majority of internet forums are not strongly moderated and encourage the free sharing of ideas and debate. It's an acceptable platform for discussions about religion. Having a religious opponent or proponent attempt to change your mind in a chat room that you can leave at any time is different than being barraged by visual and verbal propaganda in your every day life.

There is a difference between being berated to attend church by your family at every single Sunday dinner, or being led in prayer before a staff meeting at work, and freely joining an online discussion.

[Ghel]

One thing that is difficult to do is to separate the religion from the church.

Once any organization grows beyond a certain point, it falls prey to corruption and an inability for those at the top to view those at the bottom as people as opposed to numbers on a spreadsheet.

It's interesting to see corruption in an organization that claims to make its members moral. If the organization can't make its leaders moral, how can we expect it to make its followers moral? Additionally, if this claim is false in a particular religion, how can it expect us to accept its other claims as true?

It's actually a pretty new thing for atheists to be this outspoken en masse from what I understand.

That's because it's only been recently that an atheist could be outspoken without having to fear detrimental consequences to their careers or even lives. In some areas, where this is still the case, atheists must stay "in the closet" in order to remain safe.

There is a difference between being berated to attend church by your family at every single Sunday dinner, or being led in prayer before a staff meeting at work, and freely joining an online discussion.

Thank you. This is what I always think of when somebody on fratching accuses me of trying to "convert" them to atheism.

[Rapscallion]

That's because it's only been recently that an atheist could be outspoken without having to fear detrimental consequences to their careers or even lives. In some areas, where this is still the case, atheists must stay "in the closet" in order to remain safe.

I think in very recent times as well, it's been a case that the Internet and other media have given access to so much more information for all, allowing more people the chance to learn other ways and other arguments. It's generally a truism that some people are more aggressive towards those they cannot see, such as those on the Internet, and are thus more likely to challenge ideas and concepts.

Rapscallion

[RecoveringKinkoid]

I get accused of being intolerant and all sorts of things for being Christian. I have never told anyone they're going to hell. I have never told anyone what they're doing or believe is wrong. I'm told I'm wrong. I'm told I'm closed-minded. I'm told my faith is evil. I've never said that to anyone else.

Exactly this. Never once have I even come close to doing this to anyone. Personal belief and spirituality is a very personal thing, and I would consider it a failing on my part to presume to judge another person's spirituality. However, I have fielded countless accusations about my own, generalizations, personal attacks, you name it. I have been accused of all of what HD just listed. By people doing exactly that to me.

It's annoying, but the irony is delicious. And if I feel myself getting really angry over it, I just remind myself that it's not supposed to be easy. That was never promised.

[Ghel]

While all this discussion of attempted conversions is interesting, I am much more interested in the original topic, which has not been satisfactorily answered. If one does not consider the Bible to be 100% accurate, how does one determine which passages are accurate and which passages are false? If one believes that some portions of the Bible no longer apply in a modern age, why should one believe that any portions of the Bible still apply? Since some portions of the Bible are demonstrably false, why should we trust it on the portions which cannot be proved or disproved?

More to the point, I think, why should anybody trust a collection of superstitions and folk tales written by misogynist, patriarchal goatherds 2000+ years ago?