My Problem With Biblical Literalism

[Kheldarson]

Kabe is correct actually, many of the myths are Sumer in origin. The flood one especially. It's been mentioned once or twice before in these threads.

And I've been one of the ones who mentioned it. I was just expanding his argument to include Exodus and show how the other three books of the Torah can be excluded. Again, Genesis and Exodus should be taken as stories. Stories from where, probably a lot from Sumer (although the flood didn't necessarily have to come from Sumer, seeing as the Hebrews would've experienced it on their own), but seeing as they did make it to Canaan and to Egypt at various points, there's probably overlap from those regions too.

[Gravekeeper]

And Revelations, don't forget tacking on the grand finale. >.>

[RecoveringKinkoid]

Of course suggesting such a thing would get me run out of town in a lot of places down south me thinks. >.>

Well, contrary to what you learned watching those very informative documentaries, The Dukes Of Hazzard, The Beverly Hillbillies, and Li'l Abner, no more or less so than anywhere else.

[Ghel]

So...I believe that caramel is kind of nasty. This is a true statement. But my mom enjoys caramel and thinks it's one of the best things in the world. This is also a true statement. Is one of us lying then?

That's the same argument being given here. Only replace caramel with God. I haven't asked you to believe that God exists, only to believe that I believe God exists. And thus I have a whole line of logic to go with it.

I think this has been answered admirably, but I'd like to add my two cents.

The statements "I like caramel" and "I dislike caramel" are not truth statements. They are statements of opinion. Opinion is the only way in which something can be true for one person and not true for another.

When you're talking about God, however, you're making the claim "God exists." Continuing the caramel comparison, all that's needed to demonstrate that "caramel exists" is true, is to hand someone a caramel. Now, you just need to do that with God.

[Gravekeeper]

Well, contrary to what you learned watching those very informative documentaries, The Dukes Of Hazzard, The Beverly Hillbillies, and Li'l Abner, no more or less so than anywhere else.

Oh its more, definately more. My parents use to road trip through the US every year in their motorhome for years. Every year its been getting just a bit weirder for them since 9/11. After their trip last summer, they've sworn off ever going again because there's places in the south they aren't even comfortable stopping at now. People see the Canadian license plate and literally walk up to them to challenge them about politics, Jesus and what not. Because Canada is a godless socialist wasteland, remember. ><

[the_std]

Unfortunately, I have to agree with GK. The final nail in the coffin for me was Top Gear's Southern USA special.

Challenge 4 (Lethal Car Decorating): Prior to entering Alabama, the presenters were instructed to roller-paint each other's cars with slogans which might lead to them getting shot by the locals. May painted pro-homosexual slogans on Hammond's car ("Man-love rules OK"), Hammond painted "Country and Western is Rubbish" on Clarkson's, and Clarkson painted "Hillary for President, "NASCAR sucks" and "I'm bi" on May's car. All three attempts were so successful at offending the locals that, in one of Top Gear's most famous moments, the presenters and the filming crew members were chased out of town by friends of the owner of State Line Convenience in Seminole, AL, who pelted the crew's vans with rocks. The frightened crew quickly aborted the challenge and washed the paint off the cars, some using the t-shirts off their backs and cola drinks, and left.

If you watch that segment of the special, it is actually straight-up scary. I've never seen anywhere else in North America that is willing to threaten death and destruction as quickly and easily as those rednecks did.

[RecoveringKinkoid]

Really, guys? Because I live here with a biracial husband, swarthy ethnic face, and pretty liberal views on religion. So I'm thinking I probably have a better grasp on the attitudes of the average South Carolinian (at the very least) than, say, a reality show with a demographic to impress.

And, with respect, a couple of Canadians on a road trip.

I've run into nut jobs here. And in New Jersey. And Maryland. And Massachusetts. And Nevada and Texas.

I've run into nut jobs in ITALY.

There's plenty of places in the south I'm not comfortable stopping. And plenty up north, too. There are places out west I've been warned to avoid. I can't go any farther east without getting wet, so I can't speak much about the merfolk.

Unfortunately, assholes spring from every type of soil in the world. They are the kudzu of humanity.

[the_std]

Kink, I believe that there are heaps and heaps of great people in the South. I believe that you and your husband are very happy. I also know for sure that there are assholes everywhere.

But there is a difference between someone swearing at me and cutting me off in traffic, and someone chasing me down in a pick-up truck with a bunch of guys in the back, pelting me with rocks and death threats.

[Crazedclerkthe2nd]

Oh its more, definately more. My parents use to road trip through the US every year in their motorhome for years. Every year its been getting just a bit weirder for them since 9/11. After their trip last summer, they've sworn off ever going again because there's places in the south they aren't even comfortable stopping at now. People see the Canadian license plate and literally walk up to them to challenge them about politics, Jesus and what not. Because Canada is a godless socialist wasteland, remember. ><

As a Canadian now living in the South I've encountered this too, BUT the majority of people I've encountered think it's pretty neat I'm Canadian and are curious to know how things are different up there.

The people who do challenge me about politics do so because they don't understand. I had a long chat with my friend about health care and despite my efforts to make him see otherwise, he insisted that universal health care was a terrible, socialist idea.

Most are also shocked to learn Canada has gun control. They just can't imagine someone taking their pistols away. I explain that you can still have rifles and such in Canada but that doesn't sway them much.

They see Canada as a scary example of where the U.S. is headed and they don't like it...

...which blows my mind because in a lot of areas (Health care, job creation, environmental issues, general quality of life) Canada is AHEAD of America and yet somehow it would be the worst thing ever for us to become more like them??

[FArchivist]

I think this has been answered admirably, but I'd like to add my two cents.

The statements "I like caramel" and "I dislike caramel" are not truth statements. They are statements of opinion. Opinion is the only way in which something can be true for one person and not true for another.

When you're talking about God, however, you're making the claim "God exists." Continuing the caramel comparison, all that's needed to demonstrate that "caramel exists" is true, is to hand someone a caramel. Now, you just need to do that with God.

And this is where you are completely, absolutely wrong.
I will quote from the basis of Christianity, the Apostle's Creed:

I believe in God, the Father almighty, creator of heaven and earth.
I believe in Jesus Christ, his only Son, our Lord. He was conceived by the power of the Holy Spirit and born of the Virgin Mary. He suffered under Pontius Pilate, was crucified, died, and was buried. He descended to the dead. On the third day he rose again. He ascended into heaven and is seated at the right hand of the Father. He will come again to judge the living and the dead.
I believe in the Holy Spirit, the holy catholic Church, the communion of saints, the forgiveness of sins, the resurrection of the body, and life everlasting.

Bold emphasis mine. These are statements of belief, which are otherwise known as opinions. I am not saying "God exists." I am saying "It is my belief that God exists." or if you prefer "It is my opinion that God exists." The two are semantically equivalent.

[Hyena Dandy]

I'm sorry, I've had trouble following this thread, so a couple points.

1) GK, I wasn't trying to accuse Raps of censorship. I was saying what you let us believe referring to him saying he wanted to get rid of religion. Not saying he was actually actively doing it. I apologize.

2) Raps: The difference between the FSM and this is that the idea of the flying spaghetti monster is "It can't be proven not to exist, therefore you should believe it."

What we are saying is "It can't be proven not to exist, so I can believe it."

The difference is that the theists in this thread are not telling other people what to believe, they're saying that its okay for them to believe it.

Nobody's saying they should be immune to criticism. What we've been trying to get across, or at least I have, is that we don't find the criticism relevant. You're saying our beliefs don't hold up to examination, and I, at least, never claimed they did. In fact, the OP of the thread was that I DON'T believe the Bible to be literally true.

Edit: Added on thought.

The impression I've gotten, at least from Raps, was that everything is on the table for debate, which is fine. But I've also gotten the impression that he's saying if your beliefs don't stand up to being criticized, don't express them on a debate forum.

Which sounds noble, but what it comes down to is saying that I (and anyone else like me) who doesn't CARE if their beliefs stand up to the criticism isn't allowed to express themselves.

I'm sure that's not what you MEAN to be saying, but that is how its coming across.

[Rapscallion]

Edit: Added on thought.

The impression I've gotten, at least from Raps, was that everything is on the table for debate, which is fine. But I've also gotten the impression that he's saying if your beliefs don't stand up to being criticized, don't express them on a debate forum.

Which sounds noble, but what it comes down to is saying that I (and anyone else like me) who doesn't CARE if their beliefs stand up to the criticism isn't allowed to express themselves.

I'm sure that's not what you MEAN to be saying, but that is how its coming across.

I certainly don't mean to censor things on here. I think a better way of phrasing things would be that if you want to put it on here then don't be surprised if people take it to pieces. My apologies if it was able to be taken in other ways.

Fact it, I do care if your beliefs don't stand up to scrutiny. From my perspective it's a waste of the effort you could have put into bettering humanity. It also worries me about the next generation - younger people are far more likely to militant than other age groups, wanting to be holier than the generations that came before. I have no doubt that your motives are good, but there are always going to be those who take it too far.

Rapscallion

[Ghel]

These are statements of belief, which are otherwise known as opinions. I am not saying "God exists." I am saying "It is my belief that God exists." or if you prefer "It is my opinion that God exists." The two are semantically equivalent.

Are you saying that you don't think your beliefs are true (or that you don't care whether they're true)? Why would you want to believe something that isn't true?

I want to believe as many true things and as few false things as possible. I think that's something that everybody should strive for.

The impression I've gotten, at least from Raps, was that everything is on the table for debate, which is fine. But I've also gotten the impression that he's saying if your beliefs don't stand up to being criticized, don't express them on a debate forum.

Which sounds noble, but what it comes down to is saying that I (and anyone else like me) who doesn't CARE if their beliefs stand up to the criticism isn't allowed to express themselves.

Please take this as a suggestion: If you don't think your beliefs will stand up to criticism, then you shouldn't post them on a debate forum, where they will be expected to withstand criticism and where you will be expected to defend your statements.

[Rapscallion]

As a side note, to clarify my position further, I don't have any sort of contempt for anyone who has faith, unless it really does affect others negatively (I'm thinking of the Phelps type on this). If someone attends their church every Sunday, or mosque on Friday, or synagogue on Saturday, that's their deal.

If they try persuading me of the rectitude of their position, I'll quite happily engage in discussions such as this. I find them somewhat invigorating. I don't usually dislike people as a result of it, though.

Two decades past it was a different story. I'm far more mellow now.

Rapscallion

[Andara Bledin]

From my perspective it's a waste of the effort you could have put into bettering humanity.

How?

Name one manner, other than debating on the Internet, I've wasted any effort at all by believing that God exists?

I want to believe as many true things and as few false things as possible. I think that's something that everybody should strive for.

That's all well and good, and I'm glad it works for you.

Some others find the pursuit of the Cold Hard Truth as a spiritual solution to be unacceptable.

^-.-^