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There is a problem that Christians face every day, and its far more complex than it seems. If they believe in a literal version of hell, and that sinners will end up their, they probably also believe that's not a good thing. Christianity teaches compassion, and charity. Therefore, it should also teach us that we want to stop bad things from happening to other people, and therefore, we don't want people to go to hell. If we do want people to go to hell, we're not being... Well, Christian. After all, in the Gospel of Matthew, Jesus says "What you have done to the least of my brothers and sisters you have done unto me." By that logic, we should try to prevent as many people from going to hell as possible.
Hypothetically speaking, if you knew that a complete stranger was going to die in a car crash, you'd be remiss not to inform them. The logic behind evangelism is the same.
If a good person genuinely believes that people who do not do or believe a certain thing are going to be killed/tortured/etc, and did NOT try to stop this from happening, they'd be... Well, not as good a person as they think they are.
That covers the well-intentioned part.
But even the most well-intentioned bullying is still bullying. Going door to door trying to win converts, or aggressively marketing your religion is not a good idea. It makes people feel uncomfortable, and offended.
In one thread, Ghel talked about how the atheist billboards were to make people who don't believe in God feel comfortable when they're surrounded by all this pressure to convert.
That would imply that all the messages like "God loves you!" On billboards are having exactly the opposite effect from what we want them to have. And that should have been obvious.
We like to imagine that these boards will reach people who need a message like that. There are so many conversion stories, about how I was doing such-and-such a thing, and their was such and such a thing which brought us to God. I have a story like that myself.
I was at Church because, well, it was late, it was Christmas, I'm an insomniac, and I like walking. I came to a church, and decided to go sit for the service, seeing as it was just starting.
The service involved holding candles, though I'm not sure I remember why. Problem is, I'm pyrophobic. But, since I was in the middle of a pew, I couldn't exactly leave or scream. So I'm doing my best to follow along... But I'm really freaking out about this whole "Holding something that's on fire" thing. For one reason or another, I started praying for help getting through the service. Right when I was doing that, the preachery type told us to open our bibles to... Such and such a chapter and verse. And on that page, someone had, at some point in the past, put a little piece of paper in as a bookmark that had balloons and said "You can do it!"
And I felt so much better, and I decided to be a Christian... Anyway, that's my conversion story.
A lot of people who put up the signs think that they'll be mass-producing serendipity like that. That people will be driving along, having a bad day, and they'll look up and see the sign and be like "Oh, God loves me! I'll be Christian now."
Of course, the problem is, for every one person in a million who happens to be looking in the right direction, at the right time, and in the right mental state to be that affected, there's 999,999 who drive past who are annoyed or are even OFFENDED, and therefore actually made LESS receptive.
We can debate all we want about whether one soul saved is worth it, or whatever, but we'd be missing the point, which is very different. Trying to mass-produce serendipity will is counter-intuitive, and the conversion experience is just as likely to come from a misplaced sticker as it is from a ten thousand dollar billboard.
The thing that people who try to do this miss about those stories is that they all have a common theme. They don't just come at times of trouble. They come at times of trouble, after people have ASKED for it.
I was not forced to go to the church, I just happened to be nearby. While I was forced to hold a candle (I probably could have just said "no candle for me" or something, but I didn't want to stick out), and one could say I was forced to open the bible to such-and-such a page, its unlikely that any of that was part of some grand conspiracy, aimed at me or at the congregation in general.
There was no meeting of pastors or priests or whatever where they all got together and said "You know what we're going to do? We'll make them hold candles, then stick little stickers in their bibles, and when they open them they'll find a sticker and they'll know God thinks they can hold a candle!"
These conversion experiences will only come if someone is asking for them. If we try to shove our faith down people's throats when they don't want it, they'll probably push us (myself, and other Christians), and our message (Go Jesus), away. People who want or need (and I mean for themselves, not in the grand scheme of things) the message of God in their lives will be happy for it. But those who don't want it, or are not at a time when they need something like that, will be annoyed. And continuing to try to MAKE them convert when they don't want to can range from being an annoyance to being harassment in the proper, legal sense of the word.
No matter our intentions, going up to people on the street is not going to work, and is just going to get people upset. And alienating people because they're not of your faith is a horribly un-Christian thing to do. Again "What you have done to the least of your brothers and sisters, you have done unto me." Not "What you have done to the least of your brothers and sisters who believe I am the son of God you have done unto me." Or "What you have done to the least of your brothers and sisters of your denomination you have done unto me."
To go on another tangent, alienating people is never right. There are atheists who talk about feeling offended, or scared, or pressured, into not admitting their beliefs and staying, so to speak, in the closet. I myself have felt that way about my beliefs when in my peer group. The people I tend to hang out with hate Christianity, and I am not exaggerating. They think that its funny, or karmic, when a church is burned down. I had one person joke about burning down the church that, in fact, was the one I go to.
Christians need to think about how they'd feel if that happened to them before they think its right to treat atheists, buddhists, whatever, as lesser.
Back on topic.
That said, its not right to simply avoid trying to convert people either. We don't want to offend them, but we also don't want them to, well, not be Christian. Burn in hell or be dreadfully bored in purgatory or whatever their fate may be.
I don't think that its a bad thing for any Christian to try to convert people. But, I think that they SHOULD only do it if they think the other person will be receptive. For example, I only talk to someone to try to get them to convert if they're a good friend, or I otherwise think they'd be receptive to it. And if I do, and I turn out to be wrong, I leave it at that. If they want to resume the conversation another time, its up to them. Otherwise, I'll not bring it up.
Context is as important as content to a message. A sign at a women's shelter saying "You don't have to be a slave" will be received much differently than if it was at, say, a feminist rally, and that would be different than if it was at a gay pride parade.
There are people on this forum (either members or former members) who I pray for regularly, but I don't try to alienate them by bringing it up publically, or offend them by doing it privately. I'm only bringing it up now to prove a point.
And that point is that no matter how much we WANT to, evangelising doesn't help unless its been asked for.
I AM NOW SUMMARIZING MY POST. THESE ARE MY THESES. I AM NOT MARTIN LUTHER, SO I ONLY HAVE 5 OF THEM.
PLEASE DO NOT REPLY UNTIL YOU READ THIS
1) For the most part, people who are evangelizing are doing it because they genuinely want to help
2) Being too aggressive with evangelizing will not do anyone any good, and will probably do both of you harm
3) Don't mock people who have different beliefs. Again, you won't do anyone any good, and you'll both come off the worse for it.
4) If you WANT to help, let them come to you, or wait until you think they want to/should hear it.
5) I miscounted the number of theses, there were only four.
Hypothetically speaking, if you knew that a complete stranger was going to die in a car crash, you'd be remiss not to inform them. The logic behind evangelism is the same.
If a good person genuinely believes that people who do not do or believe a certain thing are going to be killed/tortured/etc, and did NOT try to stop this from happening, they'd be... Well, not as good a person as they think they are.
That covers the well-intentioned part.
But even the most well-intentioned bullying is still bullying. Going door to door trying to win converts, or aggressively marketing your religion is not a good idea. It makes people feel uncomfortable, and offended.
In one thread, Ghel talked about how the atheist billboards were to make people who don't believe in God feel comfortable when they're surrounded by all this pressure to convert.
That would imply that all the messages like "God loves you!" On billboards are having exactly the opposite effect from what we want them to have. And that should have been obvious.
We like to imagine that these boards will reach people who need a message like that. There are so many conversion stories, about how I was doing such-and-such a thing, and their was such and such a thing which brought us to God. I have a story like that myself.
I was at Church because, well, it was late, it was Christmas, I'm an insomniac, and I like walking. I came to a church, and decided to go sit for the service, seeing as it was just starting.
The service involved holding candles, though I'm not sure I remember why. Problem is, I'm pyrophobic. But, since I was in the middle of a pew, I couldn't exactly leave or scream. So I'm doing my best to follow along... But I'm really freaking out about this whole "Holding something that's on fire" thing. For one reason or another, I started praying for help getting through the service. Right when I was doing that, the preachery type told us to open our bibles to... Such and such a chapter and verse. And on that page, someone had, at some point in the past, put a little piece of paper in as a bookmark that had balloons and said "You can do it!"
And I felt so much better, and I decided to be a Christian... Anyway, that's my conversion story.
A lot of people who put up the signs think that they'll be mass-producing serendipity like that. That people will be driving along, having a bad day, and they'll look up and see the sign and be like "Oh, God loves me! I'll be Christian now."
Of course, the problem is, for every one person in a million who happens to be looking in the right direction, at the right time, and in the right mental state to be that affected, there's 999,999 who drive past who are annoyed or are even OFFENDED, and therefore actually made LESS receptive.
We can debate all we want about whether one soul saved is worth it, or whatever, but we'd be missing the point, which is very different. Trying to mass-produce serendipity will is counter-intuitive, and the conversion experience is just as likely to come from a misplaced sticker as it is from a ten thousand dollar billboard.
The thing that people who try to do this miss about those stories is that they all have a common theme. They don't just come at times of trouble. They come at times of trouble, after people have ASKED for it.
I was not forced to go to the church, I just happened to be nearby. While I was forced to hold a candle (I probably could have just said "no candle for me" or something, but I didn't want to stick out), and one could say I was forced to open the bible to such-and-such a page, its unlikely that any of that was part of some grand conspiracy, aimed at me or at the congregation in general.
There was no meeting of pastors or priests or whatever where they all got together and said "You know what we're going to do? We'll make them hold candles, then stick little stickers in their bibles, and when they open them they'll find a sticker and they'll know God thinks they can hold a candle!"
These conversion experiences will only come if someone is asking for them. If we try to shove our faith down people's throats when they don't want it, they'll probably push us (myself, and other Christians), and our message (Go Jesus), away. People who want or need (and I mean for themselves, not in the grand scheme of things) the message of God in their lives will be happy for it. But those who don't want it, or are not at a time when they need something like that, will be annoyed. And continuing to try to MAKE them convert when they don't want to can range from being an annoyance to being harassment in the proper, legal sense of the word.
No matter our intentions, going up to people on the street is not going to work, and is just going to get people upset. And alienating people because they're not of your faith is a horribly un-Christian thing to do. Again "What you have done to the least of your brothers and sisters, you have done unto me." Not "What you have done to the least of your brothers and sisters who believe I am the son of God you have done unto me." Or "What you have done to the least of your brothers and sisters of your denomination you have done unto me."
To go on another tangent, alienating people is never right. There are atheists who talk about feeling offended, or scared, or pressured, into not admitting their beliefs and staying, so to speak, in the closet. I myself have felt that way about my beliefs when in my peer group. The people I tend to hang out with hate Christianity, and I am not exaggerating. They think that its funny, or karmic, when a church is burned down. I had one person joke about burning down the church that, in fact, was the one I go to.
Christians need to think about how they'd feel if that happened to them before they think its right to treat atheists, buddhists, whatever, as lesser.
Back on topic.
That said, its not right to simply avoid trying to convert people either. We don't want to offend them, but we also don't want them to, well, not be Christian. Burn in hell or be dreadfully bored in purgatory or whatever their fate may be.
I don't think that its a bad thing for any Christian to try to convert people. But, I think that they SHOULD only do it if they think the other person will be receptive. For example, I only talk to someone to try to get them to convert if they're a good friend, or I otherwise think they'd be receptive to it. And if I do, and I turn out to be wrong, I leave it at that. If they want to resume the conversation another time, its up to them. Otherwise, I'll not bring it up.
Context is as important as content to a message. A sign at a women's shelter saying "You don't have to be a slave" will be received much differently than if it was at, say, a feminist rally, and that would be different than if it was at a gay pride parade.
There are people on this forum (either members or former members) who I pray for regularly, but I don't try to alienate them by bringing it up publically, or offend them by doing it privately. I'm only bringing it up now to prove a point.
And that point is that no matter how much we WANT to, evangelising doesn't help unless its been asked for.
I AM NOW SUMMARIZING MY POST. THESE ARE MY THESES. I AM NOT MARTIN LUTHER, SO I ONLY HAVE 5 OF THEM.
PLEASE DO NOT REPLY UNTIL YOU READ THIS
1) For the most part, people who are evangelizing are doing it because they genuinely want to help
2) Being too aggressive with evangelizing will not do anyone any good, and will probably do both of you harm
3) Don't mock people who have different beliefs. Again, you won't do anyone any good, and you'll both come off the worse for it.
4) If you WANT to help, let them come to you, or wait until you think they want to/should hear it.
5) I miscounted the number of theses, there were only four.
First of all, god is a spirit, so I don't know how that works. Second of all, it's all fear based. It's impossible for me to truely love any being that's holding a gun to my head. And if god really expects someone to truely love him when he's threatening them, god's a douche. I'm sorry, but that just makes no sense.
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