Our own taliban

[Rapscallion]

I've not met your nephew, Ree, but I can respect his attitude. It's something I share - you don't need to follow religion to do what is commonly called 'good' or 'right'. I have met you, though, and I know you're not someone who tries to force their views on others in the way Phelps et al do. It's in much the same way that I don't picket the pavements outside churches as people are leaving waving placards saying, "You just wasted part of your life."

Actually, it would be funny to go to Phelpsville and do that ... but I digress.

Rahmota - you're right about those who attack religion being overzealous as well. However, I often see them going for the jugular as soon as they learn that someone has a faith. A friend of mine gets the same result - he's a vegetarian, but doesn't mind if people eat meat in his presence. If he is with people who he doesn't know so well and he asks if there's a vegetarian option, he invariably gets comments about how his shoes are made of leather etc. To me, that's just as bad as the extreme zealots who wave their holy texts around at everything.

Ree, you spoke about the way people wanted rid of all christian values. I suspect that in analysis, this isn't entirely correct. I've read the ten commandments, which are supposed to be the basis of actions in the old testament (give or take), and there are good points in there on most of them. Don't kill, respect your parents, not coveting your neighbour's ox looks to me like don't steal etc. Such things are those are needed to form a working society. I just don't see any need to blame or praise a supernatural force for them. I also don't think that most people would want the laws regarding theft and violence repealed.

I do see fuzzy religions starting off. David Koresh started his own brand of christianity within my lifetime, and we all know how that ended up. I've seen the rise of 'intelligent design', which is to me an acceptance of the way science has eroded faith to such an extent that some religious people are trying to shoehorn their beliefs into society in some way, no matter how ludicrous. That's a whole different thread.

For me, my problem with religion is not what it says, for the most part, but the reason why we ought to obey those strictures. It's a fear-based system, and that forces people to go along with the stupid aspects (not wearing clothes made of two different fabrics? are they kidding me?) as well as the sensible. That fear is then passed on by the zealots who warn of an unprovable punishment for anyone not doing what they say.

Rapscallion

[rahmota]

Yeah the far left is just as embaressing and irritating to me as the far right. It would be a lot nicer if more people could hang out in the middle.

And I didn't think about what Ree was saying about getting rid of christian values as the do not kill, do not steal I see as more universal values all reasonable people should hold to. Regardless of whatever *ism they are a member of.

And yes I'll definately say that a religion that needs people to be members because they are too afraid not to be is not exactly a very beneficial one. If you need to have your religion supported and backed by the force of law then that does not say much for your faith in your religion.

[AFPheonix]

I forgot where I was reading this, but a recent poll documented that about 80% of US citizens polled say they go to church. I imagine this also includes the people who do the go to church on christmas and easter thing, maybe leading to the inflated number.

I can see where your nephew is coming from, Ree. When I got excommunicated last year from the Brethren church I attended since I was a baby, I got a wide range of responses from various other members of the church. (I married a non-christian, and refused to apologize for it). A lot of people disagreed with the church leadership and let me know, a few people left, and then there were the people that wrote me and my new husband the most awful, cruel letters you could imagine.
It's these last few people, essentially the SCs of Christianity that people tend to remember. I understood why the church leadership felt the way they did and did what they did, and I'm not at all angry about it in the least. It was a difference of opinion, and it was really a relief to leave.

What bothers me most about church members getting more involved in politics is that it seems that it is really changing the face of the church, and not for the better. Politics is a dirty game, and I think it's dirtying up a lot of the pastors who are trying their hand at it.

[rahmota]

You got excommed because you followed your heart and married someone outside of the church and then wouldnt repent or be ashamed of that? That transcends Sucky into domineering, controllilng and abusive. I would think I would be happy to be out form under a place like that.

I will agree with you on the entaglement of politics and religion not being a good thing for either. It weakens and demeans both and just leaves everyone dirty.

[AFPheonix]

Biblically, they felt that I was unequally yoking myself in a relationship to a guy who wouldn't be able to help me with my Christian walk. I can understand that point of view. They would have let me stay if I had issued a statement to the church that yes, the marriage was a mistake, but that a divorce would be a bigger sin.

I do not feel that my husband was a mistake, I dated him for about 6 years before we got married. I thought long and hard about it, and yes, I knew that there would be some church friction over it. Frankly, I was hoping that I'd be able to just exit stage right quietly, but that was not to be, since my Mom, who still goes there, went to the elders to see if they could talk "sense" to me.
(Mom literally burst into tears of anger and sadness when I told her about the engagement. Most people would be happy with me hitching my wagon to a genuinely nice, kind, thoughtful man who has a history of working hard, and continues to do so. Hell, he even cuts his hair and doesn't have any tattoos but hey, whatever)
The Brethren church is a very conservative denomination. They follow every literal word of the Bible, and conform themselves to the original church written about in Acts. If you ever read Lake Wobegon Days, Garrison Keillor went to a Brethren fellowship in his youth and describes it to the letter.

[rahmota]

Ahh Lovely. Im sorry that your own mother couldnt accept your choice and your happiness. I just cannot understand that kind of closed mindset. Its almost like trying to deal with someone from alpha centauri or something.

When somone says they follow the bible litterally that always makes me nervous because there are several things in there that if taken litterally are not very beneficial for people. Mainly the stoning and such things.

[AFPheonix]

She's gotten used to the idea now, she apparently was still a little bitchy about it at my wedding, but she had the good graces not to say anything to my face.
It helps that he really is a great guy too. Ya can't help but like him

[rahmota]

Well thats good to hear. Sorry that sometimes it takes a boot to the head to get people to realize what they have.

[Luna]

I would have to say I detest people of both far right and far left. One for interfering in my life and one for making me look like an intolerant beeyotch to the people who don't.

I have no love for the Catholic church, as I was thrown out of it at 8 years old when my father divorced my mother leaving her single with 4 kids. Of all the times I needed guidance, I was sent home with a letter (which I of course read) telling us that we were "no longer God's children".

I would have to say though (sorry this is jumpy but my thoughts are racing today) why is it always called Christian core values. I'm not trying to be snarky, I just really want to know. I'm wondering why it is that when you insert any other religion in fron of ___ values - Christian is the only one that somehow has come to be synonymous with 'good'. *shrugs* Just something that I find interesting when you think about it.

On the issue of our founding father being Christian, if the biographies you read are correct - they were Deists, Freemasons, and free-thinkers who believed in the God of Nature or "Providence" and brotherhood of man.
I would find a link for this but there is none for the current issue. To help with any copyright: The following excerpts are from PanGaia: A Pagan Journal for Thinking People issue number 45. PanGaia.com has only up to issue number 42 listed online.

• Thomas Jefferson wrote in 'Notes on the State of Virginia'. " it does me no injury for my neighbor to say there are twenty gods, or no god...It is error alone that needs the support of government. Truth can stand by itself.

• in the treaty of Tripolti President John Adams signed in 1797: The government of the United States is not in any sense founded upon the Christian religion."

James Madison wrote in denial of the state of Virginia support one sect of Chritianity over another declaring that , "the equal right of every citizen to the free exercise of his religion according to the dictates of conscience is held by the same tenure with all our rights " and he went on to say an authority cannot establsih one in exclusion of all other sects and religions (in a much wordier fashion I may add!)

Now that I've gone completely off topic...

back to your regularly scheduled programming

[rahmota]

Actually no you have the right idea(s) Luna. I would say you've got a good grasp of what part of the problem is.

[rdp78]

Well, I never had a personal problem dealing with fundies but I almost became a Jehovah Witness (of course, they stay out of politics) and boy do they have some odd believes like that whole not celebrating any holidays or even their birthdays. Anyway on my mom's side her sister-in-law's family are quite religious (pretty much fundies) and I didn't know until couple of my cousins were living with their significant others but now everyone is married. Anyway they sent some nasty letters to the girl cousin and I don't think they like any of the significants becuase they had tattoos/piercings. I also don't remember any of them being at the weddings accept for the grandmother and maybe another one but this has almost a year ago (Sept. 05, Feb. 06).

Anyway I don't think it's anyone's right to tell someone what they can or cannot do with their lives unless I think they would end up in jail, hurt someone or someone would get killed. I mean I don't care what someone else's sexuality is or even if they are living with someone who they are not married since their not hurting anyone. However, if someone is having sex with a child or is with someone who is abusive yes, I'll say something maybe even report/help them.

[Misanthropical]

I was raised in a Pentecostal church, which is the only one true church. It's true, just ask them.

I left when I was 18 years old, because of a huge disagreement with the pastor, over things that happened that he told me I must have deserved, because it was God's punishment. I wanted nothing to do with that type of God and left.

Of course, I got the calls telling me if I didn't come back I would go to hell and the stories of others who left the church and died horrible deaths. Of course, I didn't go back.

I was told I was marrying Satan, because my husband plays drums in a rock band. They hung up when I said I knew Satan would be good in bed, but shouldn't he be rolling in money?

The last time they got in touch, I told them I would never ever in a million years subject my children to their hate or their hate filled God. I would not have my children growing up fearing a wrath filled God just waiting to punish them.

I told them my children would learn of a loving God who loves them no matter what they do and is not out just looking for a reason to bring sorrow upon them.

They also told me that my stillborn son was "God's will" and not to question God. It was my punishment for daring to leave the "One True Church". I told them that I would burn in Hell before going back and they could shove their hatefilled God right up their ass. He was NOT my God.

Last I heard, the pastor told the church that no one is to talk to me if they see me, since I turned my back on the church, they are to turn their back to me.

They gave me a very bad taste for religion. I did attend a Luthern church for awhile that had a great pastor, but some of the men in the church had a problem with the pastor wanted me to be his assistant, since that is not a woman's role.

[Seshat]

I know I was raised with a belief that if we see someone who is in danger of eternal damnation, we have a duty to guide them back to God, or risk the same fate by allowing the sin to continue.

My problem with this is that it is so often done in a patronising, insulting manner. As if the person being preached to is unable to make up their own mind, and somehow unaware of Christianity's existence. (HOW? How can one be unaware of Christianity in this world?)

From what I know of you, and the other things you said in this post, Ree, I believe you wouldn't do it that way. But the Christians who do, make it harder for everyone.

I have a nephew whom I love dearly. He is at the age where he is discovering his own identity. I suspect that includes the fact that he is gay or at the very least, bisexual.
Even though I was raised with the belief that homosexuality is a sin, I have known this little boy from birth, and I know that he is not choosing to be this way. I have had to rethink my whole belief system in that regard.

That's an extremely difficult thing to do. I respect you for choosing to do it that way. I'm sure your nephew is pleased to have a relative who simply accepts him, as well.

I spent a whole day with him a couple of weeks ago, just him and I. We had a long talk. He is a beautiful person with a wonderful social conscience. He is a model of Christianity, except for one thing. He has rejected Chritianity. In fact, he was so adamant in his condemnation of the Roman Catholic religion, that it was the only black cloud on an almost perfect day.

This can probably be placed on the doorstep of those 'Christians' who forget that Christ showed as much love for prostitutes, sinners, and lepers as he did for anyone else. Who forget that Christ's commandment was 'love one another as I have loved you'.

You showed that love for your nephew. But many, many people who call themselves Christian do not. Ironically, those who show him and people like him hatred are more noticeable, more visible, than those like you, or like the Lutheran pastor who married my husband and I.

Please consider the possibility (likelihood, in my opinon) that your nephew is rejecting the haters and unaware that in doing so, he is also rejecting the quiet, accepting Christians like you and like the pastor I just mentioned.

He spoke of my religion with such venom and almost hatred. I sat there and listened to him speak of so many things that he believes, and I accepted them without argument or condmenation, because if I had spoken up and called him on his beliefs, I would have been putting him down. I would have been guilty of hypocrisy because I was supposedly a Christian, but I wasn't acting like it because I was forcing my views on him, yet he was allowed to do the same to me unchecked.

The universe balances itself. I've sat with my parents, listening to their pastor preach against my type of belief to a whole congregation, yet sitting quietly for much the same reason that you sat quietly and listened to your nephew speak against yours.

Sadly, I've given up trying to talk to my parents about my religion. It always turns into a talk about how persecuted Christianity is in Australia. (Which confuses me, actually.)

It might be a good idea sometime to talk to your nephew at a time when he's receptive, and ask him to listen to your beliefs with as open a mind as you listen to his. Then you can introduce him to the Christ who took Mary Magdalene as a friend, and who cares about the downtrodden, and who is quiet. Tell him about your Christ, not the Christ of the crazy, loud haters.

If you choose to do this, however, I think it'll be important to make it clear that you're not asking him to share your views, just explaining yours to him. And very important to make it clear that you love him no matter what.

Perhaps I have missed the point of this whole thread, and I am still arguing the point of my other thread, but it seems to me that, now it is trendy to not be affiliated in anyway with organized religion, especially Christianity, and in fact, the more one can suppress and malign any Christian views in any way, the better it seems to be.

I think my viewpoint regarding Christianity goes as follows: 'Christ, save me from some of your followers!'

There are many people who call themselves Christian, some of them doing so very loudly, who I think Christ would look at, shake his head and sigh. They're not listening to his message, much less looking at his life.

Unfortunately, most people are not educated about Christ himself, much less about Martin Luther, the Jesuits, the Franciscans, and the many other schisms of Christianity trying to return to simplicity and loving service. They don't know enough to separate the message of Christ from the message of certain Christians.

Even some who do know (such as myself) choose not to be Christian per se. If anything, I'm probably closest to Buddhist. But the Buddhist eightfold path and the Christian life of 'loving one another as I have loved you' are quite similar anyway (at the level that I practice). The only real difference is that I don't worship or pray, I meditate.

[protege]

I was raised in a Pentecostal church, which is the only one true church. It's true, just ask them.

I was wondering when someone was going to bring them up

But seriously, I dated a Pentecostal girl for awhile. Now *that* was interesting... Why? Well, at least locally, they have a reputation for being zealots. However, she wasn't like that. She was rather tolerant...because she understood why I no longer followed any religion. (I was raised Roman Catholic. However, I left the church when I was 14--It seemed my prayers weren't being answered, so I couldn't see the point.) Anyway, she never said a thing to me about it.

Her mother was another story She never said it to my face, but I did hear from people that she was *not* happy about her daughter dating me. Something about how I was in the "wrong" religion. I took that with a grain of salt...since she was also the same person who, when her car broke down, kept claiming that "Satan didn't want me to go to church" that night. I think it was really rather simple: I had a better job, a nicer car, etc....and she was jealous.

After realizing that, I *could* have recited a certain list of Commandments, including the one about not coveting your neighbor's goods...but I'm sure that would have caused a mental meltdown

[AFPheonix]

You think pentacostals are nutty, 7th day adventists are even funkier. They don't feel that even other denominations of Christians are going to heaven because they aren't holy enough, since they don't worship on the true Sabbath (they think that's Saturday), and they partake of worldly things like caffeine and alcohol (wine at the breaking of bread). Yeah, fun.