The old evolution debate

[muses_nightmare]

I think this is in the right spot, if not please feel free to move it.

I got into the evolution debate with a Christian friend of mine recently. She's planning on taking a course that would require her to take a lot of biology courses, and of course evolution would be included in some of those courses to some extent. She understands that she has to learn it, but the thing that got me was that she was bothered by the fact that evolution is taught as if it's a fact when it's "just a theory". This is the argument I hate the most when it comes to the whole debate, because it seems to me that, at least in my experiences, creationists seem to have a hard time differentiating between scientific theory and philosophical theory or the average person's idea of what a theory is.

Also, I get sick of the whole "they should teach the other side", well one creationism is not science, it's religion, secondly, why is creationism thought to be the only other creation myth out there, it's not. Why not teach all of them as science if you're going to teach one myth you should teach all of the sides right?

The idea that evolution is just a belief is just utterly ridiculous. I will never understand how people can just disregard all of the evidence out there.

I just told my friend that if she wants to pursue her career she's going to have to learn about evolution, whether or not she believes in it because it is an important part of some science courses that she will have to take. At least she understands that, though this was someone who dropped an Earth Science class in high school (the easiest science class, but possibly the most interesting) because it taught about the big bang, so we'll see how far she gets. I hope she does managed to get through it, and well, I hope it educates her a bit on "the other side of things" as she put it. I don't think she's ever really studied anything like that so I'm hoping it opens her eyes a bit about the whole subject.

[Plaidman]

I want to preface this by that I'm of belief of evoulution. I also hate God if it exists, as it seems to enjoy me suffering in life.

While evoulution has been proven by human standards in our quest for understanding, it's still a human concept. Name ONE human that has never been wrong. While I'm stating the idea of evolution isn't wrong, I'm also stating it isn't right ether. What is the missing link? Where did we come from? Why are we vastly smarter then animals? Why do we have hate towards differences when animals don't? No-one can answer that.

I hate God. With all my heart if it exists. (If God exists, I tend to think of it as a female honestly). She has given me nothing but grief, and refuses me a single gift that she gives freely to every other fucking human in the entire world. And won't give anything to make up for it.

So while Religious people can't be given a corrective stance on the world, so can't evolutionists. There so much of the universe we don't understand (Primary love) and cannot explain. We're all equal in the world and deserve a fair shot of our views without fear of ridicule. At least, my belief in the world.

[Rapscallion]

There are several problems with the religious viewpoint on this.

A theory is not some wishy-washy idea. A theory is a tried and tested idea that is still tested and occasionally altered as required. It's stood the tests and generally been found correct. Evolution is not 'just a theory' - it's a theory. There are gaps in it, but they are being investigated, and there are alterations. An untested idea is a hypothesis.

Just because a theory doesn't yet explain everything doesn't mean that a hypothesis is true. We may have missing links and the like, but the leaps of judgement made by religious people on this to crediting their vengeful sky pixie have no real evidence other than a book credited to said vengeful sky pixie that tells you it's right because it's ... telling you it's right.

The principle difference is that scientists who investigate evolution should be prepared to change their ideas on aspects as and when evidence arises. You point out inconsistencies to a devout religious person and they try and justify a preconceived idea via magic or word games. It's disingenuous at best.

Rapscallion

[muses_nightmare]

Yes, it is a human concept, but what else do we have exactly, I mean really, you're excluding every concept ever because it's a human concept. We don't exactly have anything else to go on now do we? Yes there are errors, but really, when it comes to something like evolution those errors don't disprove the theory, if an error is found or something new discovered it is corrected or added to the current knowledge of the subject. Evolution is something that is essentially a fact based on the evidence we've found, which is to say, a lot of evidence.

I'm sure you're aware from my post, but I'm not Christian, but I am also not an Atheist. I do believe in a higher power, and I follow a specific religion (I worship the gods of Kemet (Egypt)). I wouldn't expect everyone to learn the Egyptian creation myth(s) in the same way Christians want their myth taught. Sorry, but there is no more proof for either.

[Plaidman]

There isn't proof for any religion, nor am I a follower of any cause they're all horrible deities that care nothing except their own power. I belive in my own beliefs, because frankly I despise and activally hate all other /deities/.

There is zero proof for them, just like there is zero proof for evoulution.
Just let others belive in what they want. Does it hurt you in anyway if another belives how they were created differ from yours? Of course not, so let them. In death we're all equal into the blissful abyss of nothinginess that cannot come soon enough for some.

[Mongo Skruddgemire]

There is zero proof for them, just like there is zero proof for evoulution.

A scientific theory comprises a collection of concepts, including abstractions of observable phenomena expressed as quantifiable properties, together with rules (called scientific laws) that express relationships between observations of such concepts. A scientific theory is constructed to conform to available empirical data about such observations, and is put forth as a principle or body of principles for explaining a class of phenomena.

Meaning that the theory of evolution is the theory that was concocted to explain the observable phenomenon of animals changing over time. How we have a fossil record of the earlier forms of horses (the size of house cats) changing into what we think of a horse today.

A theory is not something we pull out of our butts. If I had never seen snow before and didn't know that it was frozen water and saw a snow man on the side of the road. Then one day I see that it's gone and in its place there was a puddle of water.

I might make the hypothesis that the snow was made of water and that somehow the snowman had changed states. A Hypothesis is then the "guess" we make before gathering evidence.

Now it snows again and I make my own snowman. I might even take some snow for study. Over time and experimentation I discover many things about snow such as melting point, rates of phase change, etc. Because of the observable and more importantly, consistently repeatable outcomes to my experiments I might make up a theory on the nature of cold.

Using a historical example on the early forms of cold I might make a theory that cold is a substance.

I then write a paper on it and let others in the scientific community take a crack at it. They repeat my experiments and get the same results. They might then back my theory.

Now we go forward 100 years. Someone discovers something new that doesn't fit my theory. They still get the same results in the experiments. Snow turns into water, the change in phase comes at 32 degrees (0 Celsius), it melts at the same rate as in my experiments...But now someone figures out that by taking heat from one object and transferring it to another.

They may make a hypothesis that cold is not a substance, but that heat is and cold is simply the absence of heat. They do experimentation, come up with repeatable results, come up with a theory and then pass that theory to the community at large.

My theory was wrong, but the observable phenomenon still is unchanged. I was only looking at a smaller picture than the people who came along 100 years later who saw another piece that I missed.

Later someone sees something new and both my observable phenomenon and that of the person who came along 100 years after me are still there, but now have a new theory to explain it. Years after that and even that person's theory gets ripped apart but their observations are still there.

This is the theory of evolution. Darwin made his observations and came up with a theory. It has since been looked at and looked over and over again. Evolution as a theory has had many rewrites over the years, but no matter how it's rewritten, there is a flightless variant of a Cormorant and an iguana that swims on the Galapagos Islands that adapted and evolved from other animals in to their current forms.

A good example of how a theory evolves over time, watch Nova's "Absolute Zero" (Netflix has it for instant download) which covers 4 centuries of the theories of cold and how it has lead us to the search for the ultimate cold.

[Greenday]

=There is zero proof for them, just like there is zero proof for evoulution.

Not sure what evolution you are talking about since it exists and has been proven true through proof. Humans have evolved. Plants evolved. Diseases evolve. Denying this is like saying we don't need air to breathe or food to survive.

The extreme majority of evolution taught in college bio courses has nothing to do with how humans came out of existence. It's about micro- and macroevolution, which is fact.

[Hyena Dandy]

There are several problems with the religious viewpoint on this.

I'd like to point out that not believing in evolution is not "The religious viewpoint."

Its a SPECIFIC viewpoint held by some religious people. That's not the same as saying all religious people don't believe in evolution. Not all religious people, or even all Christians, are fundamentalist literalists.

[BlaqueKatt]

well that and evolution does not attempt to address "how life began", just the diversion of species for common ancestry.

[Rapscallion]

I'd like to point out that not believing in evolution is not "The religious viewpoint."

Its a SPECIFIC viewpoint held by some religious people. That's not the same as saying all religious people don't believe in evolution. Not all religious people, or even all Christians, are fundamentalist literalists.

Mmmm, not heard of any atheists denying evolution. In fact, if a religion preaches that creation is the only method for our existence, and goes down the route of accepting evolution instead, then they're not following that religion.

So, any non-religious anti-evolutionaries out there? I don't think it's an unreasonable assumption on my part based on what I've seen.

Rapscallion

[DrFaroohk]

Why can't they go hand in hand?

In most biblical stories I rarely see God actively take a hand in something. Did he just show up and obliterate Sodom? No, he made a meteor shower or something. Did he smite the earth when he decided it wasn't going right? No, he made it rain so hard it flooded. I rarely see a "God raised his hand and smote them with his will!" story. He uses people and nature to accomplish his goals.

So why couldn't evolution be the way he got things going here?

[SkullKing]

There isn't proof for any religion, nor am I a follower of any cause they're all horrible deities that care nothing except their own power. I belive in my own beliefs, because frankly I despise and activally hate all other /deities/.

There is zero proof for them, just like there is zero proof for evoulution.
Just let others belive in what they want. Does it hurt you in anyway if another belives how they were created differ from yours? Of course not, so let them. In death we're all equal into the blissful abyss of nothinginess that cannot come soon enough for some.

have you ever heard of the Norse deities Tyr and Heindall? i think they are pretty heroic.

I aways liked them, even if I don´t really care so much about others more poplars like Thor.

I Also have a profound hate of god if it exists, but some of the politeistic religions have some very heroic deities.

and there is plenty of evidence for evolution, including forced and simulated evolution experiments.

Also, there is much evidence for evolution, including forced and simulated evolution experiments

[Andara Bledin]

You point out inconsistencies to a devout religious person and they try and justify a preconceived idea via magic or word games. It's disingenuous at best.

Nice generalization, there.

I'm about as devout as one can get, and I have no problem with evolution. Or creationism, although not that whole 6000 year or whatever the hell stupid idea keeps being bandied about. I don't see either as having to be mutually exclusive.

^-.-^

[Hyena Dandy]

Mmmm, not heard of any atheists denying evolution. In fact, if a religion preaches that creation is the only method for our existence, and goes down the route of accepting evolution instead, then they're not following that religion.

So, any non-religious anti-evolutionaries out there? I don't think it's an unreasonable assumption on my part based on what I've seen.

Rapscallion

That was not my point. My point was not that Atheists don't believe in evolution. My point was that there ARE Christians who believe in evolution. I humbly apologize if I did not make that clear but I feel that I did. Perhaps you can explain how I could have made that more clear, so I can avoid miscommunicating in the future.

[Rapscallion]

That was not my point. My point was not that Atheists don't believe in evolution. My point was that there ARE Christians who believe in evolution. I humbly apologize if I did not make that clear but I feel that I did. Perhaps you can explain how I could have made that more clear, so I can avoid miscommunicating in the future.

I'll make my point clearer.

The christian holy text states that the world was brought into being by their divinity. The birds and beasts etc were all brought into being by said divinity. If you believe otherwise, you're not following christianity.

Rapscallion