Religious Persecution

[the_std]

... But coming from the other side.

Yesterday, I saw an art exhibit about how religious people are being persecuted by the media, the schools and the majority in general. The artist talked about how religious people were being told to shut up about their religion, about how they weren't allowed to talk about it because the PCs would cry "religious discrimination". She mentioned kids not being allowed to pray in school at all, about not being taught anything about religion in public schools, about not being able to publicly celebrate Christmas or other religious holidays and about not having any modern Christian culture like the secular part of the West does. She talked about all Christian music being termed "preachy and boring", about religious TV shows being ignored because they weren't considered edgy and about religious novelists being told that they were outdated. She said that the pendulum has swung the other way, and that it was like the Crusades, except against the religious.

So, what do you think? Is religion being persecuted?

[Norton]

I don't think it's being persecuted, but that rather power is being taken away from it. It seems to me that less people are being drawn to Christianity, and more people are abandoning it. If that's correct, then it only makes sense that the Christian influence will lessen.

Yes, in some areas Christians are being told to keep quiet about their religion. More and more people are disbelieving in it, and don't want to hear about how the Christian way is better. How is this different from a Christian not wanting to be preached to by a Wiccan/Hindu/Scientologist? My beliefs are just as strong as anyone's, and I have a right to not be preached to.

There are a great many kids in public schools that don't celebrate Christmas. Yes, it's a national holiday, but it's also a religious holiday. I'm sure being bombarded with Christmas themes in school makes non-Christian children uncomfortable (I was one of them). However, I disagree that there should be no prayer in public schools. If a child wants to say grace before eating lunch, they should be allowed to. The problem is when school staff lead the children in prayer - no one should be forced to pray, just as no one should be forced to celebrate a religious holiday.

As for not being taught religion, that shouldn't be the school's burden. Parents should be instilling religious values in their children. At the most, schools should only explain the basic beliefs and practices behind various religions. If someone wants their child to learn religious values through school, they'll have to forgo the public school system and invest in a private, religious school.

As for Christian music... um, of course non-Christians won't like it! It preaches something they don't believe in. I dislike some of the messages I've heard in Christian music because a lot has to do with letting God fix your problems - something I strongly disagree with. Oh, aside from the messages, I find a lot of Christian rock sounds very generic and un-inspiring musically.

The current situation is very different from the crusades. No one saying to Christians "Become an Atheist or else!" I doubt it will come to a point where people have to practice Christianity in secret, lest they suffer torture. Christians are free to believe and practice what they wish, but the influence they've held for so long is starting to wane - as it should. America is slowly shifting from being a largely Christian country to a melting pot of ideas and beliefs. I see this as a good thing.

[Slytovhand]

It's an interesting thought.... that one of the most fundamental apsects of human nature is being 'persecuted'... and I'd put it down to technology and science.

Some of it will be the PC's of the world (damn that Microsoft!!!) - because they don't want to offend anyone (and please recall, it was I who started a couple of threads on here about that... such as the 'Blaspheme' thread...but I tend to throw stuff up in the interests of debate). Besides which, there was the very real aspect of christians attacking muslims after the WTC attacks (still goes on.. and the wars in Afghanistan and Iraq are being termed in religious contexts.... by some).

If you are going to bring the Crusades into this, then yes... religion is going to be persecuted... because quite often, history will follow any discussion of religion... and history is full of religious persecution.

As a slight argument against Norton... I do think that religion should be taught in public schools - comparative religion... to help a) curb some of the persecution that has gone on in light of the woes of the world, and b) to help instill that belief - any belief - is important to people as something inherent... and that just because you choose to believe something (or nothing) then what others believe has just as much validity and worth. (it's way too easy to scoff at someone else's beliefs when you don't bother trying to accept that simple premise!) This might go a little way to easing some of the attitudes people have towards each other.


But in a way - it is understandable... as a lot of the media's attention will focus on those religious leaders who go for the media - and thus are vocal... and have a tendency to be fundamentalists and extreme conservatives (often... read looneys). Moderates tend to get silenced in the media (unless they're put on a back foot from the fundies). And a lot talk about retribution and sin and evil... people don't want to be continually told they are evil and have to atone... they've gotten past that (and don't want to think that what is socially acceptable is actually bad... or give up their creature comforts). So.. religion of that kind will decline.


Just my thoughts... at 6am

Slyt

[Difdi]

So, what do you think? Is religion being persecuted?

In that context, yes. The statement "all opinions are equally valid" is semantically identical to "all opinions are equally invalid." As a result, in an attempt to be tolerant of everyone's religion, the end result is to prevent the practice of any religion, since one person visibly practicing would have an impact on someone of another religion watching it.

Personally, my religion is a private thing. I don't pray aloud, I seldom wear obvious symbols of it. I don't wear much jewelry, period. But get on my case about me clasping my hands and meeting God's gaze, as I silently pray? I'll give your opinion the respect it deserves, and do as my rights permit me. If someone has a problem with my prayer, they can pound sand...because they have no right to tell me not to, no matter where I choose to do it.

I realize a lot of students, particularly younger ones, might have problems doing this. Teachers and other adults have a lot of power. But teach your kids to stand up for what is right, and if necessary, sue the bejeezus out of the district -- after all, if they expel your kid for being insubordinate and praying anyway, you've got a airtight civil rights case (which begs the question...how can you be insubordinate by obeying a higher civil authority than the one who is giving you cotnrary orders?)

[Zyanya]

[Zyanya]

Yesterday, I saw an art exhibit about how religious people are being persecuted by the media, the schools and the majority in general.

We have 23 local channels that all TVs in the area can pick up, free of charge.

Two of them are entirely devoted to Christian programming.

On Sunday Morning, only 4 of them are NOT showing Christian programming, and 2 of those are showing the news.

She mentioned kids not being allowed to pray in school at all, about not being taught anything about religion in public schools, about not being able to publicly celebrate Christmas or other religious holidays and about not having any modern Christian culture like the secular part of the West does.

Oh no, the poor little Christian has to deal with someone wishing them Happy Holidays instead of Merry Christmas. Whatever is the world coming to?

Hang on, let me check......

Nope, the pledge of allegiance still says 'under god' and there are still Christian clubs allowed on all school campuses. It's still legal to attend church and pray on your own time. So, what, she's upset that her kid can't pray out loud during a math test and disrupt other students?

No, she's upset because her little snowflake isn't being allowed to preach to her classmates on school time and that her little snowflake can get in trouble if she tries to bully students of different faiths that they need to follow hers or go to hell.

She talked about all Christian music being termed "preachy and boring", about religious TV shows being ignored because they weren't considered edgy and about religious novelists being told that they were outdated.

*gasp*

You mean people aren't being forced to listen to music, read books, and watch TV that isn't to their tastes? The shame of it! The horror! Someone must do something immediately!

[the_std]

You mean people aren't being forced to listen to music, read books, and watch TV that isn't to their tastes? The shame of it! The horror! Someone must do something immediately!

Haha, that's pretty much what I was thinking as I looked at the exhibit.

[aniwahya]

How many Presidents of the US (a major world superpower) have been a non-christian?

I think there were two atheists. A lot more were non-practicing christians, but nonetheless felt the need to distinguish themselves as christians.

Complaining about being persecuted is a common passive-aggressive tactic. It takes focus away from their aggressive actions, is intended to make other religions defensive, and build sympathy for the "victims" all at the same time.

It varies between cities, but in my area of the US churchs of christian denominations outnumber all other religious centers 100:1. I have never seen non Christians marching in the streets proclaiming their beliefs via signs and yelling. Every time I turn around I see chistians exercising their right of free speech and freedom of religion, all the while ruthlessly oppressing other religions and lines of belief.*

I simply fail to see the persecution. The whole argument sounds like she is interpreting rejection of christian beliefs and values as being an oppressive attack.

*I am using these as examples of where the balance of power is in favor of the christians.

[Amethyst Hunter]

You can't be and are not persecuted if you're the dominant religion in an area. The dominant makes the rules.

When Christians are forced at gunpoint to convert to a different religion, when Christian churches everywhere are systematically shut down as part of a concerted fascist effort, when one can't even admit in public to being Christian for fear of literal life and limb, then, and ONLY then, can it truly be said that Christianity and those who follow it are under real persecution. (At least in this country, anyway)

The whole "Xtians are soooo persecuted!" "There's a War Against Christmas/Xtians!" is total bullshit. It's just a way for the wankers (who should not be confused with actual Christians) to play the pity card and grab up more power than they deserve. They want real persecution, they should go overseas and get yanked out of bed in the middle of the night to be driven downtown and beaten to a bloody pulp, or completely disappear for good. THAT'S persecution.

[AFPheonix]

How many Presidents of the US (a major world superpower) have been a non-christian?

Hell, it was a big deal when Kennedy was elected because he was Catholic, not Protestant.

Kids are allowed to pray in school, I'm not sure where that lady is getting that from. Teachers and whatnot are just not allowed to do official prayers for the kids. The kids can instigate prayer at appropriate times, though, like recess and other breaks.

This is a pretty common theme in a lot of churches, because giving the congregation something to rally around and fight against promotes unity of a sorts. There was a lot of "us against the world" stuff at the one I grew up in. Hell, even some of the Sunday School songs we'd sing were reminiscent of that idea:
I may never march in the infantry
Ride in the cavalry
Shoot the artillery
I may never fly over the enemy
But I'm in the Lord's Army
(Yes Sir!)
-repeat ad nauseum-

I'll bet the originator of the exhibit grew up saying and thinking exactly that sort of stuff.

[Difdi]

Kids are allowed to pray in school, I'm not sure where that lady is getting that from. Teachers and whatnot are just not allowed to do official prayers for the kids. The kids can instigate prayer at appropriate times, though, like recess and other breaks.

There is a growing trend where schools are actually forbidding individual prayers. A number of schools have canceled their official Christmas celebrations (which, due to the establishment clause, is a good thing) but many schools take it too far, and punish kids who wear Christmas-themed clothing to school.

[IDrinkaRum]

AFP - I was going to mention Kennedy's Catholicism, but you beat me to it. But yeah, I remember being told in History class that he had to make a promise that the Pope would have no say in his administration.

I don't feel I'm persecuted, per se by non-Christian people. However, I do sometimes feel I'm persecuted by other Christian peoples 'cos I'm a Catholic and not a Protestant because Catholics are baby-eating, devil-worshiping, non-God worshiping, worshiping the Virgin Mary religious zealots. Or something like that. I don't know - I usually stop listening to their rantings.

Ahem, yes, well, I'll get you back to your Original Topic and stop the off-topic ranting.

[AFPheonix]

There is a growing trend where schools are actually forbidding individual prayers. A number of schools have canceled their official Christmas celebrations (which, due to the establishment clause, is a good thing) but many schools take it too far, and punish kids who wear Christmas-themed clothing to school.

Then that's an infringement on the child's right to freedom of religion, and is prosecutable. The school cannot promote or discourage religion. It gets to be neutral. The kids can either be religious or not, but should not allow their religion or lack of it to be a disruption to the rest of the kids.

[Boozy]

There is a growing trend where schools are actually forbidding individual prayers.

Can you provide links to specific incidences?

I'm questioning you here because schools cannot prevent a student from praying during their free time on school grounds, as long as they are not unduly disruptive to other students.

To ban individual prayer would be in violation of several major Supreme Court judgments (most notably, the 1990 Mergens ruling) and these schools would not have a leg to stand on if they were sued.

[anriana]

So when this person said "religious people are being persecuted by the media" she meant "Christians are being persecuted?" Or it just happened at all of her examples that specified a religion specified something Christian?


"People tell me to shut up when I try to witness to them and they don't want to hear it, work wouldn't let me set up a nativity in my office, someone said tv shows based on a 2,000-year-old religion aren't edgy, and people who don't share my religious beliefs don't want to consume media that involves those beliefs? This is EXACTLY like an army invading my country, sacking my temple, and killing my family!"


She may have been able to make a statement about the declining influence of Christianity, but not if she's going to make asinine claims like "This is exactly like the Crusades!"