Religious Persecution

[the_std]

She said "religious people", but all of her examples were Christian save one. I think it was something along the lines of "what if you're religious, but not a Christian? You're told to go to a Christian school, because public schools don't allow religion", but that was so absurd (ignoring the various Jewish, Hindu, Muslim and Native American schools we have here) that I didn't include it in the original post.

And I don't think she meant it EXACTLY like the Crusades, but she said what I included in the OP.

[BlaqueKatt]

Yesterday, I saw an art exhibit about how religious people are being persecuted by the media, the schools and the majority in general. <snip>
So, what do you think? Is religion being persecuted?

Let's see how webster's dictionary describes persecution shall we?

Persecution
Per`se*cu"tion\, n. [F. pers['e]cution, L. persecutio.]

1. The act or practice of persecuting; especially, the infliction of loss, pain, or death for adherence to a particular creed or mode of worship.

2. The state or condition of being persecuted.

3. A carrying on; prosecution.


I see no infliction of Loss, pain or death-so nope no persecution.

[Pedersen]

You can't be and are not persecuted if you're the dominant religion in an area. The dominant makes the rules.

Let's see how webster's dictionary describes persecution shall we?

Wow. Let's check out Wikipedia real quick (mainly because it's online):

Persecution is the active, systematic mistreatment of an individual or group by another group or individual.

Now, since that's Wikipedia, and so many people have issues with them, I'll go with the Compact Oxford English Dictionary online, which lists persecute as:

verb 1 subject to prolonged hostility and ill-treatment. 2 persistently harass or annoy.

My apologies, I don't have access to a full copy of the OED, or I'd quote from there, too.

Oh, and one more quote, from BlaqueKatt, quoting Webster's dictionary:

The act or practice of persecuting

Note that not a single one of these definitions require that one group be dominant, nor that one group have any loss or death inflicted on them. Only that there is prolonged action against a specific individual or group. That's the one thing that all of them have in common.

Is Christianity being persecuted? I don't know, and honestly don't much care.

I do know that what you're all arguing against, though, is not what these people are stating. They are stating that they feel like they are experiencing hostilities on a regular basis, and this has been going on for some time. As such, they do feel persecuted.

If you want to get on their case because you feel that they're obnoxious, or because you feel that they are trying to force their way into every aspect of your life, or whatever, that's fine. Have at it.

But be honest about it, and don't try to hide behind a shield of majority/minority, or focusing on a specific (and optional) subsection of a specific definition of a word. That just makes you look dishonest to those that know the definitions that you are (apparently) ignoring.

[CancelMyService]

It's hard for someone belonging to a religion shared by like 80% of the country to claim persecution. I'd wager someone of wiccan belief has a much, much better case to make.

From someone who considers themself a retired Christian, it seems that most of the "OMG persecuted!" claims can be boiled down to "OMG you won't let me force my beliefs on everyone!"

[Boozy]

It's hard for someone belonging to a religion shared by like 80% of the country to claim persecution.

Yes and no.

Claims of persecution by Christians in America are at best laughable, and at worst offensive (to those who have truly experienced persecution.)

But its important to recognize that the majority does not always hold the power; blacks in South Africa would be a good example of this. In the case of Christianity in America, persecution cannot be claimed because it is the religion of the ruling elite, not necessarily because it is the choice of religion for the majority.

I realize that was a bit nitpicky, but I'm trying to head off some more predictable objections.

[Zyanya]

There is a growing trend where schools are actually forbidding individual prayers. A number of schools have canceled their official Christmas celebrations (which, due to the establishment clause, is a good thing) but many schools take it too far, and punish kids who wear Christmas-themed clothing to school.

No, there really isn't.

There are right-wing editorials claiming there is such a trend, but any actual activity in that 'trend' is a statistical rarity if not an over-hyped misunderstanding or downright work of fiction.

I do know that what you're all arguing against, though, is not what these people are stating. They are stating that they feel like they are experiencing hostilities on a regular basis, and this has been going on for some time. As such, they do feel persecuted.

The 'hostilities' they are 'experiencing on a regular basis' amount to such horrid crimes as when they walk up to someone and say 'can I tell you about Jesus', the person responds 'no'. Or when the knock on someone's door to 'spread the good word' and the person on the other side of the door points to the very clear 'no solicitation sign'.

And don't forget the extremely cruel insult of 'happy holidays'. How dare people try to be inclusive instead of only acknowledging Christians!

Or the nerve of not allowing someone to lead me prayer when coming over to my house for dinner.

Why, just the other day I persecuted someone who forced a religious tract into my hands by turning around and tossing it in the trash. I probably should at least get 3 months probation and community service for that.

And when giving someone a ride home, when they reached over and turned my radio to a Christian talk station without asking if it was okay with me, I, and yes it shames me to the core to admit this, I reached over and *gasp* turned the dial back to where it was originally.

And I *sniffles* replaced my darwin fish bumper sticker after some well-meaning individual vandalized my old one. Not only that, I removed the 'Jesus is Lord' bumpersticker that same well-meaning individual placed on my car.

Yeah, that's totally persecution.

[Pedersen]

It's hard for someone belonging to a religion shared by like 80% of the country to claim persecution. I'd wager someone of wiccan belief has a much, much better case to make.

Claims of persecution by Christians in America are at best laughable, and at worst offensive (to those who have truly experienced persecution.)

The 'hostilities' they are 'experiencing on a regular basis' amount to such horrid crimes as when they walk up to someone and say 'can I tell you about Jesus', the person responds 'no'. Or when the knock on someone's door to 'spread the good word' and the person on the other side of the door points to the very clear 'no solicitation sign'.

Wow... three people respond to me, and not one of them actually seems to have read my post. Either that, or I was so obtuse that my post was simply not possible to be understood.

I'll try again. Persecution is not a numbers game. It is about words and actions.

1 person can persecute 100. For instance, I'm a white guy. If I move into a predominantly black neighborhood, I can easily persecute every black person in this neighborhood. How? Start walking around wearing a white sheet. Hang a confederate flag. Walk around wearing a white sheet. Put offensive bumper stickers on my car.

These are all just examples. Ah, wait, that's bigotry, not persecution, isn't it? You all seem to need persecution to relate to religion. Fine.

How about a single Wiccan persecuting a neighborhood of Christians? Will that do it? Because here's some examples for how that could happen. Wiccan hangs religious symbols in every window of the home. Hangs them from every tree in the yard. Walks up and down the street, preaching how the Christian faith is wrong at the top of his lungs, and that any Christians who fail to follow that Wiccan's chosen path are evil. Wiccan makes show of casting various spells on people on the street. Visits the local church, and spray paints various symbols over the local symbols. Breaks in, burns the bibles. Etc, etc.

Is that enough for you to get the point? Or do I have to continue to provide more and more examples? One person can persecute one hundred people, and do so quite easily.

Oh, and since this point was mostly ignored: I have zero idea if Christians are being persecuted. And I honestly do not care. But this crap of "You're in the majority, so it can't possibly happen to you" is just that: crap. Gah, it's that other racism thread all over again.

Go ahead, pat yourselves on the back. You're in the minority, some one else is in the majority, and therefore they're automatically in the wrong. Now that I've realized that that's what these sorts of threads are for, I'll step away and let you have whatever delusions you wish.

[the_std]

Personally, I think that the claim of persecution is silly. Not because it's the majority claiming persecution, but because persecution is such a loaded, heavy and very negative word. Simply receiving hostility from groups different from yourself isn't persecution, it's life. If they were receiving hostility that made it impossible to practice their religion anywhere, at any time, then I might agree. If they were being constantly harassed to the point of not being able to admit their Christianity in public for fear of being ostracized or beaten, then I might agree.

But her claim of Christian persecution here, in the city, hell, in the country I live in, just doesn't fly. Not because the Christians are the majority (which they are), but because she is seeing a balance returning as discriminating against her religion.

[AFPheonix]

Wow... three people respond to me, and not one of them actually seems to have read my post. Either that, or I was so obtuse that my post was simply not possible to be understood.

I'll try again. Persecution is not a numbers game. It is about words and actions.

That's funny, you went on to restate what Boozy already said:

Yes and no

But its important to recognize that the majority does not always hold the power; blacks in South Africa would be a good example of this. In the case of Christianity in America, persecution cannot be claimed because it is the religion of the ruling elite, not necessarily because it is the choice of religion for the majority.

The part you quoted was referring to the actual lack of persecution itself. Christians really aren't as persecuted as they'd like to think. I would think athiests or Muslims have a better claim to persecution in this country, really.

[Boozy]

Wow... three people respond to me, and not one of them actually seems to have read my post.

Why did you think I was responding to you? I didn't quote you in my post. I was quoting CancelMyService.

You're right about one thing, however - I didn't read your post.

[Slytovhand]

I'll join in this bit...

Pedersen...

How about a single Wiccan persecuting a neighborhood of Christians? Will that do it? Because here's some examples for how that could happen. Wiccan hangs religious symbols in every window of the home. Hangs them from every tree in the yard.

Nope.. those 2 examples are just 'freedom of speech', not a form of persecution... Letting people know what you believe, especially in your own home, isn't persecution.

Yeah... the rest of the story is though

Given that your various elected officials are under an oath 'to god' (presuming they still are...??), I think it would be hard to push the 'christians are persecuted' line. And that, so I read not so long ago, that apparently the majority of US citizens don't want an atheist as president... as if that actually matters.

And 'feeling persecuted' doesn't actually mean they are being persecuted... as was mentioned - it's a nice word to use when you want to elicit support for a cause.


Pedersen... can we have some more examples please??

Slyt

[CancelMyService]

Well there's certainly a difference between blacks in South Africa and Christians in America, and I'm not sure that's something that needed pointing out but ok.

Perhaps I should have phrased it more like "It's hard for someone belonging to a religion that has major influence on national discourse and elections to to claim persecution".

[anriana]

Pederson - I see what you mean by stating that a majority can still technically be persecuted, but I still don't agree that Christians are being persecuted even under the definitions you provided. There is no long "prolonged action" against the religion, only a prolonged REaction. Very few, if any, people have randomly decided "Hey, prank calling CSRs and making fun of Islam is getting old, let's move on to harassing Christians!" Every example she provided of "persecution" is a response to actions by Christians.

[Zyanya]

Is that enough for you to get the point? Or do I have to continue to provide more and more examples? One person can persecute one hundred people, and do so quite easily..

You have to find me a real-life example, then demonstrate it's a widespread problem.

Since you cannot, it's pretty safe to say the persecution is exactly what we are saying it is.

You haven't countered anything we have said.

[Difdi]

Then that's an infringement on the child's right to freedom of religion, and is prosecutable. The school cannot promote or discourage religion. It gets to be neutral. The kids can either be religious or not, but should not allow their religion or lack of it to be a disruption to the rest of the kids.

The problem arises in how you define a disruption. Kids being kids, someone simply being visibly different can cause disruption. One Wiccan kid in a Bible Belt school can cause a massive disruption. The other kids wearing a cross on a neck chain won't cause a disruption -- it's normal. But what happens in gym class if someone sees that Wiccan kid wearing a symbol of his faith? Instant disruption.

Is the kid wrong to quietly wear a necklace? Not at all. But it's easier for a school to control 1 kid than to control 3000. Defined the way the more authoritarian schools do so, that kid is being disruptive in class.

Can you provide links to specific incidences?

I can probably dig up a few, but I don't have any right at the moment.

I'm questioning you here because schools cannot prevent a student from praying during their free time on school grounds, as long as they are not unduly disruptive to other students.

To ban individual prayer would be in violation of several major Supreme Court judgments (most notably, the 1990 Mergens ruling) and these schools would not have a leg to stand on if they were sued.

Of course they can prevent it. They're not allowed to under the law, but they can. The balance of power is such that a student has little recourse save to file a lawsuit if hir rights are violated. In the meantime, the student will be in constant detention, possibly expelled, punished by the school, shunned by classmates, possibly even facing criminal charges, and may never recover academically. Assuming it gets to a court, well, a number of courts have refused to hear school related cases -- They claim a lack of jurisdiction. Assuming the family goes to great expense and manages to get onto a docket, they will probably win. But that takes quite a lot of money and time, and in the meantime, the school does whatever it feels like.

And again on the subject of disruption: If your local community is so intolerant of paganism, that simply displaying a Wiccan (or Sikh, or Discordian, or whatever) symbol is enough to get crowds of parents talking about morality and/or picketing the school, then showing that symbol is almost certainly going to be ruled disruptive by the school administration.

No, there really isn't.

There are right-wing editorials claiming there is such a trend, but any actual activity in that 'trend' is a statistical rarity if not an over-hyped misunderstanding or downright work of fiction.

Yes, there really is. I'm not referring to editorials or opinion pieces. I'm talking about real news articles. And as I replied to Boozy up above, I don't have the URLs right at my fingertips, but I could find quite a few links if I worked at it.

Perhaps it is getting reported more now and always happened in the past, unnoticed. Or perhaps I'm right and the increase in reporting is indicative of a trend in schools. I do object to you characterizing things you don't like as a work of fiction though. As an example. there's an actual published book that chronicles a chain of events that most people in the US would claim "can't happen here". The book is often shelved in the fiction section of libraries and book stores, due to people not believing that something like that can happen in America. But it's not fiction. It's also not relevant to the topic of this thread, but go google "The Hacker Crackdown", by Bruce Sterling.

Why, just the other day I persecuted someone who forced a religious tract into my hands by turning around and tossing it in the trash. I probably should at least get 3 months probation and community service for that.

Yeah, that's totally persecution.

Be careful. In some places, doing that to holy literature (throwing in trash, flushing down a toilet, whatever) could be considered a hate crime. There's a case in Canada at the moment of a priest quoting aloud from the Bible to support his Church's opposition to abortion being charged with a hate crime.