Religious Persecution

[AFPheonix]

The problem arises in how you define a disruption. Kids being kids, someone simply being visibly different can cause disruption. One Wiccan kid in a Bible Belt school can cause a massive disruption. The other kids wearing a cross on a neck chain won't cause a disruption -- it's normal. But what happens in gym class if someone sees that Wiccan kid wearing a symbol of his faith? Instant disruption.

But in that case, I would define the children who noticed the symbol and proceeded to make a big deal out of it to be the disruptors, not the child with the necklace. But you're also assuming that other kids will notice the necklace and even understand what it represents. In this case, the kids who theoretically would be making noise would be getting the negative attention.

I would love to see articles where kids were bullied into not praying in school. Maybe I went to a weird public school k-6, but I never had an issue. Now, I have heard of teachers who weren't allowed to pull bibles out in class or preach to kids without facing retribution, but that's understandable.

[Zyanya]

Yes, there really is. I'm not referring to editorials or opinion pieces. I'm talking about real news articles. And as I replied to Boozy up above, I don't have the URLs right at my fingertips, but I could find quite a few links if I worked at it.

Then work at it. I see tons of claims that it's widespread, but no actual real cases except for obviously one-sided propaganda like 'well, I was lecturing this student on why she was going to hell and the teacher told me to knock it off so he oppressed me!!!"

The simple fact that you would have to work at finding a few links demonstrates that no, it is not widespread or a growing trend.

But let's go ahead and look at an actual case of religious persecution in a school, m'kay?

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/07/29/us...ewanted=1&_r=1

Wow. So much persecution going on there. I mean, how dare a JEW ask that the prayers be a little more inclusive of other faiths! That's anti-Christian bigotry right there! How dare these people not want to be proselytized to! It's downright unAmerican.

I do object to you characterizing things you don't like as a work of fiction though.

Sorry dear, but I've dealt with enough people who were persecuted only in their own minds to know it is primarily a work of fiction and wishful thinking. My own aunt thinks I am stamping down on her religious beliefs by refusing to let her take my son to church. She thinks it is her right to force her religious beliefs on others, thus in her mind it is religious persecution anytime someone objects or states a different belief.

Been there, done that, t-shirts are $1.99 a 12-pack.

It's the same claptrap that says 'because we aren't forcing kids to be Christian, they are getting in trouble', while conveniently forgetting the majority of the prison population is Christian.

No, the real story of this 'Christian persecution' is that some Christians see adding any opposing viewpoint to the school library (like a book about a gay penguin) as an attack on their religion. I see people claiming that schools are teaching kids about studying human sacrifice. WTFBBQ damn right it's a work of fiction.

Look at this piece of stupidity -

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-.../1954210/posts

"In some primary and elementary schools, students are taught how to cast spells."

Yeah, I call it a work of fiction for a reason. That being, it's a bald-faced malicious lie trying to slander public schools.

Be careful. In some places, doing that to holy literature (throwing in trash, flushing down a toilet, whatever) could be considered a hate crime. There's a case in Canada at the moment of a priest quoting aloud from the Bible to support his Church's opposition to abortion being charged with a hate crime.

Uh-huh. Now give me the whole story there, cause something similar happened in the US. Turns out the real story was the guy was supporting abortion clinic bombings by using passages about killing unbelievers.

No, there is no place where me throwing a religious pamphlet thrust into my hands into the garbage is a 'hate crime'. That to is a work of fiction.

[Pedersen]

Uh-huh. Now give me the whole story there, cause something similar happened in the US. Turns out the real story was the guy was supporting abortion clinic bombings by using passages about killing unbelievers.

No, there is no place where me throwing a religious pamphlet thrust into my hands into the garbage is a 'hate crime'. That to is a work of fiction.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/4608949.stm

[AFPheonix]

^^ In that case, it was more of a disrespect for someone else's property than a hate crime due to having thrown away a pamphlet someone gave to you.

[Zyanya]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/4608949.stm

AFPheonix covered the obvious difference between that occurrence and the scenario I offered.

But for the peanut gallery, the difference is this -

If I go into your house, take your holy book, and destroy your property, that is a hate crime.

If you force a holy book into my hands, making it my property, and I destroy my property, that is my right.

Just like if I sell my car on craigslist, it's business, but if I sell your car on craigslist, it's theft.

Or if I pull out all the flowers from my flower bed, it's gardening, but if I pull out all the flowers from your flower bed, it's vandalism.


Like I said, look at the WHOLE story.

So again, no, there is no place where me throwing a religious pamphlet thrust into my hands into the garbage is a 'hate crime'. That to is a work of fiction.

[Seshat]

<Mod hat on>

Let's try to keep things civil, they're starting to edge towards the point where we'll have to interfere, and I'd rather not.

Remember: argue the ideas, not the individual.

<Mod hat off>


My parents tried to tell me that Christianity is persecuted in Australia.

On that same trip, I went with them to their church, at their request. The guest speaker that day went on this great raving monologue about pushing Christianity down other people's throats. (Though he phrased it more as 'missionary work'.)

Honestly, I feel that my spiritual and religious beliefs are far more 'persecuted' than theirs:

- They, for many years, successfully ran a business which advertised its Christian owners and (many, not all) Christian staff.
- I've only once dared mention my own beliefs at a workplace, for fear of being fired. Oh, not openly 'how dare you believe that, you're fired', but reasons can always be found. The one exception was a business owned and run by pagans.

- Their religious holidays and 'day of rest' are the dominant ones for the nation.
- If I want a religious holiday off, I have to negotiate for it. Which, given that I dare not mention my beliefs in a workplace ..... is kinda hard.

- Go into any major city in the nation on Friday or Saturday night, and somewhere, there'll be a Christian street preacher bugging everyone about how they're going to Hell.
- The closest I've seen to someone of my religion feeling secure enough to openly celebrate their religion are the Hare Krishnas dancing and singing their joy. And no, I'm not one of them - but I kinda like them. They're fun.

Sure, I - and many, many other Australians - will tell proselytising Christians to get the hell of our doorsteps. In varying degrees of 'polite' or 'rude'. But that's not persecution.

Sure, some people don't like Christian music or to be talked to about Christianity. But on the other hand, I bet most of the folks here will recognise this lyric snippet:

Going on up to the spirit in the sky
That's where I'm gonna go when I die
When I die and they lay me to rest
Gonna go to the place that's the best.


Or this one:

Your own personal Jesus
Someone to hear your prayers
Someone who cares.



When stuff like this is so popular, I don't think Christianity is generically persecuted in this country. Oh sure, some individuals might find it excessive, or offensive, or whatever. But turn the other cheek and ignore those individuals.


Reach out and touch Faith.

[the_std]

Ahhh, Seshat, Marilyn Manson is definitely my favourite Christian musician ever.

[repsac]

From my experience, my personal experience that is, it seems to depend on a ton of things. Whether your sect, your particular religion, or you current living location.

Take me for example, I follow a faith that's...well it's REALLY hard to explain. Officially it's called Shintoism, but the more accurate naming of it is Shinto Christianity.

(See. confusing. Trust me it could get worse.)

It's a japanese take on Christianity, and has been described by many outside the faith as being quote "Peaceful and beautiful."

However, I happen to live well into the "Bible" belt. Right smack dab among all the fundamentalist and southern baptists. Because of their beliefs, and the fact that they control most of the governmental and legislative positions in my area, I can't openly talk about my faith.

If I do, I'll face persecution. In most cases, out right open persecution. I remember a few years back, going to this harvest fair with a few friends of mine. While we were there, we were invited to eat at this large buffet, and well...I guess I slipped.

When I was handed my food, I reflexively bowed my head and said "itadakimasu". This means "I humbly receive" and is our way of showing thanks to the person who prepared the food, as well as the animals that gave their life to provide nourishment. Well, the server took one look at me as I said that and snatched the food back, stating he wasn't serving no <blank> pagan. Furthermore, if I knew what was <blank> good for me, I'd get my <blank> <blank> out of there before they showed me what their God told them to <blanking> do with <blank> Pagans.

I just quietly left. To this day I still get a hard time, but I no longer talk about my faith openly. It's just not a hassle I think I need.

[guywithashovel]

The 'hostilities' they are 'experiencing on a regular basis' amount to such horrid crimes as when they walk up to someone and say 'can I tell you about Jesus', the person responds 'no'. Or when the knock on someone's door to 'spread the good word' and the person on the other side of the door points to the very clear 'no solicitation sign'.

I've actually had a few door knockers tell me that "No Solicitation" signs do not apply to them, because (according to them) "solicit" means "sell," and they are not selling anything---what they are offering is free of charge. They said that if people do not want religious witnesses to knock on their doors, they need to get signs that say "No Religious Proselytizing." In other words, people need to get special signs just for them. Nice.

As for the original topic, I tend to be moderately skeptical of people who claim to be persecuted because of their religion. From my experience, people who get "persecuted" for their religious beliefs are usually very obnoxious with their religious beliefs. They are the people who like to litter stores, parking lots, and various public buildings with pamphlets pertaining to their religion. They are the type of people who use their religion to exalt themselves above other people. They are the type of people who cannot carry on a conversation with another person without trying to lure that person into their religion.

I'm not saying this is always the case. I'm just saying this has been my observation. I am in the minority with my "religious" beliefs, and I am virtually never persecuted. Then again, maybe I'm just lucky. Perhaps if I lived in Alabama or Georgia as opposed to the Midwestern state in which I reside, it would be different.

[Evandril]

As for the original topic, I tend to be moderately skeptical of people who claim to be persecuted because of their religion. From my experience, people who get "persecuted" for their religious beliefs are usually very obnoxious with their religious beliefs. They are the people who like to litter stores, parking lots, and various public buildings with pamphlets pertaining to their religion. They are the type of people who use their religion to exalt themselves above other people. They are the type of people who cannot carry on a conversation with another person without trying to lure that person into their religion.

I'm not saying this is always the case. I'm just saying this has been my observation. I am in the minority with my "religious" beliefs, and I am virtually never persecuted. Then again, maybe I'm just lucky. Perhaps if I lived in Alabama or Georgia as opposed to the Midwestern state in which I reside, it would be different.

It does make a great difference where you live. I grew up in Colorado, and during my time there, was convinced that the whole 'discrimination' thing was far overplayed, in quite a few of it's forms...Then I got stationed in arkansas, and found things like a publicly active chapter of the kkk, and people being preached at by groups of people...With not 'believing' properly having an impact on your reviews at work, as well as most other aspects of the job.

[Gerrinson]

I've actually had a few door knockers tell me that "No Solicitation" signs do not apply to them, because (according to them) "solicit" means "sell," and they are not selling anything---what they are offering is free of charge. They said that if people do not want religious witnesses to knock on their doors, they need to get signs that say "No Religious Proselytizing." In other words, people need to get special signs just for them. Nice.

Actually, a 'No Trespassers' sign works quite well in this situation. If I A) did not invite you, or B) do not welcome you on my property then you are, in fact, a trespasser and I can tell you to leave or face legal prosecution.

And, in this case, prosecution is certainly not persecution.

As for as the original topic, I have rarely seen any true forms of religious persecution. There were a few instances of targeted vandilism 'attacks' (yes, the local papers & populace called spray painting an 'outright attack') on the local Methodist church (95% black members, and the 'attacks' seemed racially motivated - such as 'Jesus hates N-words') and there were a few similar 'attacks' on local synagogues (a few Nazi swastikas and the K-word - once). After a few instances at each, the whole thing just stopped.

I would guess idiotic teenagers with too much time and spray paint. While the vandalism was rather vile, it at least represents actual attempts at persecution.

I don't think I've ever seen or read about any actual persecution of Christianity itself in my neck of the woods. Although to hear the outspoken locals, you'd think we were dragging them to the coliseum every weekend and tossing them in with the lions.

Small and isolated incidents, like I mentioned, absolutely happen. I also think they are dealt with hastily and/or come to a rather abrubt end. But a nationwade case of persecution of the entire Christian religion in the US? I haven't seen any evidence to support that.

I think it's simply a rallying cry and that most cases of 'persecution' amount to 'I don't care if you're Christian, just stay out of my business.' Or at least, that's what I've personally seen, and that's the most to which I can attest.

[AFPheonix]

From what I've gathered from growing up fundie, it's persecution from media and general sinfulness. The fact that tv shows exist that aren't Christian qualify as persecuting a christian way of life.
It's odd, but there you go. Onward Christian soldiers, fighting for the cross and all that.