Disagreeing with the church = losing your priesthood

[HYHYBT]

I seem, then, to have misunderstood what "recant" meant. So it *doesn't* mean he has to say that he personally believes the church's position to be correct?

[Rapscallion]

I don't have any knowledge of the actual process used, but I would guess that the church didn't just slam in with the recant demand. I suspect it did lay out the likely actions if he didn't change his mind, and that it tried to persuade him otherwise.

Anyone know if they would have gone down this path?

Rapscallion

[Sleepwalker]

Used to be house arrest or torture for things like that. He got away lightly. I think that shows that the the church involved is somewhat more enlightened than it used to be.

Rapscallion

Pfft. It is weaker than it used to be. If they tortured the priest, secular authorites would hand their asses to them.

It's like calling an imprisoned serial killer more enlightened because he hasn't killed any children lately.

[Hyena Dandy]

Pfft. It is weaker than it used to be. If they tortured the priest, secular authorites would hand their asses to them.

So its not possible that the people running the show have ALSO gotten more enlightened the same way the rest of the world has?

[Nyoibo]

Well they're not torturing people in the Vatican City and as it's subject to Catholic rather than secular law, I'd say they've evolved a little since that time.

[Sleepwalker]

You think that if they were burning people alive in the heart of the EU they wouldn't do anything about it?

[Hyena Dandy]

You think that if they were burning people alive in the heart of the EU they wouldn't do anything about it?

I think they don't want to burn people alive. You haven't given me a good reason to think they do.

[smileyeagle1021]

I think they don't want to burn people alive. You haven't given me a good reason to think they do.

In fairness, there probably are Catholics who would LOVE to burn people alive, much as there are Mormons who still think the proper treatment for homosexuality is to strap electrodes to a man's penis and give it an electric shock every time the subject is shown a picture of an attractive unclothed man.

The higher ups at the LDS church now condemn such barbaric forms of "therapy" (though they have not condemned ex-gay therapy as a whole, merely the forms that involve physical torture... big jump, I know ), much as the Catholic church now condemns burning people at the stake.

If we are going to condemn a church for their lack of enlightenment, we should at least be doing it upon their official doctrine* and policies rather than what a few fringe fanatics are doing.

*I would make an exception to this for things that are not official doctrine yet still widely practiced. As an example, there is no official doctrine in the LDS church against consuming caffeine (the exact wording is "hot drinks" which referred to drinks that had to be brewed such as coffee and tea), but it is a common interpretation and practice in the LDS church so would be something I'd bring up if we were talking about something related to that practice.

[Sleepwalker]

I think they don't want to burn people alive. You haven't given me a good reason to think they do.

Prior experience.

[Hyena Dandy]

Prior experience.

What sort of prior experience?

What modern church authorities are demanding executions? Yes, the church did a lot of shit for centuries. But times have moved on. And the church has moved with them.

They're backwards in a lot of things, but as far as I know, it is no longer church policy to suggest people be executed, or tortured. Unless you know something I don't, which is not impossible, nobody in the church hierarchy has demanded execution of anyone for heresy.

But please, enlighten me. If you know who's suggesting executions, I'd like to know. But 'They can't if they wanted to' and 'they did nearly two centuries ago (186 years is the last time someone was executed for heresy) is not proof that the modern church has any desire to execute poeple.

[Sleepwalker]

The american fundamentalist bankrolling of the Kill Gays bill in Uganda. This ain't rocket science- they push for as much as society will let them. Here, removal of civil rights like marriage. There, removal of civil rights like the right to live. Take a long hard look at who is saying what about the american hate crime laws here. Look at what they don't want punished. Am I supposed to believe they wouldn't stone people as their good book says for them to if they wouldn't get arrested for it?

Or the catholic bannings of abortion- even to save the lives of 9 year olds raped by their daddies- in south america. Now, am I supposed to believe that the same people who call abortion genocide wouldn't enforce this with executions if they held the reins of the local courts still?

The church kills a lot of people. They don't value human life, their own tradition is more important. They just lack an army of their own since government became more secular, and are forced to kill people more obliquely.

[Hyena Dandy]

You did not answer my question. It may have been phrased poorly, so I will restate it.

Can you give me a reference to the church hierarchy actually calling for someone's death for heresy, please? Or, in fact, the church hierarchy calling for ANYBODY's death. Again, I am not aware of one, but you may be. If you are, please stop dancing around the question.

Not 'banning abortions in South America'. Not Christians who AREN'T Catholic bankrolling a foreign government. That is not the same as calling for someone's death, even if it leads to it. It is not good, but I did not argue that the church was all good. I am saying that the church does not advocate killing people. That is my position, and that is what I would like addressed.

The church is an organization. It has a doctrine, and edicts. It has rules. And as an organization, it has an official position, one which does not always coincide with the reality (as evidenced by the fact that they did not give up their claim on the Papal States until the 1920s)

Trying to determine whether or not they advocate burning heretics based on Catholics banning abortions in South America and American Fundamentalists (who would be as offended at their being called Catholic as I am) funding a foreign government is, despite what your emotional appeal, rather difficult.

The church hasn't executed anyone for heresy in over a century. There was about 20-40 years between the last execution for heresy (1826) and the time that the Papal State stopped to be a country ruled by the pope, and became secularly ruled by the Kingdom of Italy.

[Sleepwalker]

I didn't call the fundies catholics. Apparently that is what 'the church' means to you, I'll file that away.

As for you, since what it would take for you to believe they'd execute people if they could is them actually going and executing people in a public square and issuing press releases, we're going to not agree on this. Religious contempt for human life when it conflicts with their traditions is clear. The fact that their armies are gone and their application of their doctrine is limited to what secular authorities will allow doesn't mean much to you, I guess.

[Hyena Dandy]

I didn't call the fundies catholics. Apparently that is what 'the church' means to you, I'll file that away.

In a thread about a Catholic Priest being excomunnicated, yes, that is what it means to me.

As for you, since what it would take for you to believe they'd execute people if they could is them actually going and executing people in a public square and issuing press releases, we're going to not agree on this. Religious contempt for human life when it conflicts with their traditions is clear. The fact that their armies are gone and their application of their doctrine is limited to what secular authorities will allow doesn't mean much to you, I guess.

What I ask is an official statement saying that they believe someone should be executed. Not that they actually have done so.

[Andara Bledin]

I didn't call the fundies catholics. Apparently that is what 'the church' means to you, I'll file that away.

This entire thread is very specifically about the Catholic Church. There is no other "the church" to be referenced.

Waldron is a born-again evangelical Christian, not a Catholic.

You can't just lump all forms of Christianity into the same bin and say any one is the same as any other and not expect to be called on it.

^-.-^