Disagreeing with the church = losing your priesthood

[Kheldarson]

Religious contempt for human life when it conflicts with their traditions is clear. The fact that their armies are gone and their application of their doctrine is limited to what secular authorities will allow doesn't mean much to you, I guess.

Religious contempt for human life?

Erm...how about no? The Church has always been concerned for human life, although how they completely defined it has changed. In the Middle Ages, human life was mostly defined by the soul, so ergo, if your soul was saved, your life was saved. Hence why the overly strong reaction to heresy during the Inquisition period. Not even taking into account the various political motivations. And no, I'm not counting the Spanish Inquisition which really had very little to do with the Catholic Church and everything to do with political machinations of a kingdom. Modern interpretation of life has more to do with the state of soul and body.

You find this concern in statements of abortion (let's not deliberately kill an innocent child), eugenics (it's God's determination of when you die/we don't condone suicide), birth control (see abortion but has to do with prevention of the development and theories of presence of a soul), et. al.

Do I believe that the South American case was bungled? Yes. Do I believe that there are things that the Church should reconsider? Yes. But I believe that one, they take all things into consideration and don't make changes lightly, and two, when they do change things it'll be for the better.

[HYHYBT]

In the Middle Ages, human life was mostly defined by the soul, so ergo, if your soul was saved, your life was saved. Hence why the overly strong reaction to heresy during the Inquisition period.

Seems like that would be all the more reason NOT to kill heretics, though. So long as they live, there's the possibility that they will change their minds. Once you kill them it's too late.

[smileyeagle1021]

That is not the same as calling for someone's death, even if it leads to it. .

That is a very fine line to be treading... they won't be able to stay on it very long, eventually they will fall to one side or the other... but at this point it isn't clear which way they will fall and we can still hope they will come down on the right side.

Religious contempt for human life?

Erm...how about no? The Church has always been concerned for human life,

How does torture fit into this picture?
There are still several Christian sects (I'm not familiar enough with Catholicism to say this applies to them) that still support "gay reparation therapy" that, depending on what method is being used, has been classified from psychological abuse by the APA to torture under the Geneva convention.

The church values their definition of life and their definition of happiness, and don't tend to give a damn about other views.

[Kheldarson]

Seems like that would be all the more reason NOT to kill heretics, though. So long as they live, there's the possibility that they will change their minds. Once you kill them it's too late.

Well, that would be the current theory. Back then, it was more 'not letting one bad apple spoil the bunch'. So better to kill the unrepentant one and let God sort it out rather than risk the salvation of the whole.

And yes, I realize that doesn't make much sense either, but the late Middle Ages was not an admittedly good time for the Church. I realize this. (Makes for great history papers though)

How does torture fit into this picture?
There are still several Christian sects (I'm not familiar enough with Catholicism to say this applies to them) that still support "gay reparation therapy" that, depending on what method is being used, has been classified from psychological abuse by the APA to torture under the Geneva convention.

The Catholic Church does not condone torture for any reason (yes, yes, the Inquisition yadda yadda, that was the Middle Ages again, kay?). The Church's official stance is that homosexuals are called to a life of celibacy like everyone else...but a more permanent celibacy. That'll prolly continued to be debated like everything else. But there are Catholic support groups that try to help young men and women live that life style.

[Ree]

The Catholic Church does not condone torture for any reason

The Church's official stance is that homosexuals are called to a life of celibacy like everyone else...but a more permanent celibacy. That'll prolly continued to be debated like everything else. But there are Catholic support groups that try to help young men and women live that life style.

Oh. no at MY Catholic Church we routinely have "gay stoning" on the back lawn, just for shits and giggles.
Doesn't every church?

[HYHYBT]

Oh. no at MY Catholic Church we routinely have "gay stoning" on the back lawn, just for shits and giggles.
Doesn't every church?

Funny, I thought that was more of a pentecostal/baptist/"nondenominational" thing.



There's a lot I don't like about the Catholic Church on this sort of thing, especially attempts to encode doctrine into civil law (because if it weren't for that, the other wouldn't matter so much) but it's about as consistent as can be about "here is where we stand" without being hateful about it as it's possible to be. That doesn't mean there aren't exceptions (in various directions), but in general...

That carries over to individuals as well: *almost* uniformly, people I've known who are Catholic (when I knew, of course) have been... how to put this? Better than average, without getting overbearing about it.

[smileyeagle1021]

The Catholic Church does not condone torture for any reason (yes, yes, the Inquisition yadda yadda, that was the Middle Ages again, kay?). The Church's official stance is that homosexuals are called to a life of celibacy like everyone else...but a more permanent celibacy. That'll prolly continued to be debated like everything else. But there are Catholic support groups that try to help young men and women live that life style.

Hence why I said up front I wasn't familiar with the Catholic church, and while I disagree with the Catholic policy I can respect it.

[Kheldarson]

I know, smiley, I was just addressing in the parentheses what I knew to be the disagreeing argument and decided to go ahead and get it out of the way. Been working on some historical arguments and it's bleeding over, sorry.

[Sleepwalker]

How many of these 'good' catholics you knew followed church doctrine?

This talk about how the church came to the conclusion that killing heretics was the best for everybody reminds me of how the church considers aiding and abetting child rape 'for the dignity of the church'. Sure, if you look at every with a 'what I want is the best for everyone', you can do any damn thing you like. Rape women because you like kids. Burn atheists alive because you want everyone to go to sunday school. Be an apologist for an roganization that thinks this way, because they are totally doing what is best for humanity, because a powerful, universal church is what is best for humanity.

[Kheldarson]

Are you saying I'm not a good Catholic?

All groups have issues, from the smallest church group to the largest. How do you know a universal church wouldn't be best for humanity? We've never had one. What I do know is that the Church has had her low points, and she's had her highs. She's had men in charge that have shown the worst of human behavior, and champions who've shown the best.

And if that's not a good model for average human behavior, I don't know what is.

And yes, I'll be an apologist for my religion because people constantly hang on to just the bad of my faith and try to use that to downplay the positive steps that are taken by my faith of choice.

[Mytical]

While I agree they can take away his being a Catholic Priest, they can not take away him being a preacher. That is not at the sole discretion of the Catholics. I have been known to 'preach' as hard as I try not to, because the spirit moves me. Not the god that as the Catholics know god, I'll be the first to admit. You do not need a degree, you do not need the ok from any organized religion. All you need are people willing to listen, and a message. I can do a very good sermon, despite not having a belief of the Catholic deity known as god. If the spirit moves, he can preach. He may have to find more willing ears, but that..that they can not take away.

[HYHYBT]

Indeed; if he doesn't mind not being *Catholic* any more at all (and I can certainly see both why someone would stay in those circumstances and why they'd leave) then it would probably even be fairly easy to become officially a priest/minister/whatever in another denomination.

[Kheldarson]

Hey, Myt, the Catholic God is the same as any Christian God. And Jewish. And technically Muslim. We just all have different doctrines.

[Mytical]

True, call him/her/it what you want..

My point I tried to make is that no one faith has a lock on who can be a preacher or not. You do not need to go to seminary, or college, or have some piece of paper saying "So and so is a priest/preacher/etc." You just need the spirit, the message, and a audience (in some cases not that )