"True" Christianity

[anriana]

Who gets to decide what is considered Christian and what isn't? The church I was raised in defined Christian as anyone who believed in Jesus and his divinity and sacrifice and etc, believed the Bible was the Word of God, and had been baptised. Obviously this excludes many denominations of Xity. On the other side, I have a friend who doesn't believe the Bible at all yet considers himself Xtian. As Xianity doesn't have a central leader, who decides what's Xtian and what isn't?


On a side note, my church was very dedicated to campaigning against all of the "fake" Xians, especially Catholics, Mormons, and Episcopalians. My child self really thought that Catholics spent their Sundays praying to a woman and making up books to add to their Bible, then drinking and gambling until they had to get their stomachs pumped. I was a bit disappointed when I went to Mass and found it every bit as mundane and boring as SBaptist service. Why direct your energy against people who are on your side? Isn't the point of Xianity evangelizing the world? Why not spend energy on that instead of attacking each other?

[DesignFox]

Why direct your energy against people who are on your side? Isn't the point of Xianity evangelizing the world? Why not spend energy on that instead of attacking each other?

Same reason people fight about all the other stupid things they fight about.

Absolutely no reason whatsoever except that the "other way" is different and, therefore, it must be wrong. It is just another Us vs Them excuse. This is why I am not religious and don't align myself with any one faith or church.

I can't subscribe to the belief that billions of people will go to hell for worshipping God differently from me. -or- calling God by some other name. -or- just because they don't believe in God...or whatever. When I went to church, I was taught that Jesus turned the other cheek...I can't follow a teaching that on one hand says "love thy neighbor" and on the other hand came to power by slaughtering innocents because they called God Allah or they didn't believe in Jesus...

Just about every religion seems to follow whatever tenets best suit it and it's hold over it's followers. and personally, I don't need to be told I'm going to hell because I'm enjoying my life to it's fullest (without murdering, stealing, or harming my fellow man.)

FTR:
I respect people who find peace in their religion. As long as they don't force their beliefs on others, or hate people because they worship differently from them.

I agree with you anriana, in that I never understood the separation of the churches, or why, say, when it was time to make my confirmation, I couldn't pick my best friend's mom who was a Methodist as my sponsor... (I was raised Catholic). THAT was pretty much my turning point.

[AFPheonix]

7th Day Adventists think everyone else is going to hell since they worship on Sunday, not Saturday.

I think all of it is kind of amusing, really. Most sects differ on small turns of extraneous doctrine, not on the major points. I'm sure God is just rolling his eyes big time up there.

[IDrinkaRum]

My child self really thought that Catholics spent their Sundays praying to a woman and making up books to add to their Bible, then drinking and gambling until they had to get their stomachs pumped. I was a bit disappointed when I went to Mass and found it every bit as mundane and boring as SBaptist service.

Man! If that's what happens at Catholic Churches, I'd hurry back to the Catholic Church. That sounds like fun.

And the Christians who say they know what is going on with the Catholics don't understand us at all. What has always confused me is how do they get this worship of Mary? That's what's confusing.

This is how I figure it (and you might not agree with me, but this is what I've come up with, and if it's too simplistic or "wrong", who cares? It makes sense to me and it makes me happy): Humans were given Free Will. Mary was a human. Therefore, Mary had Free Will. Because Mary had Free Will, when the Angel Gabriel came down from Heaven and said God had chosen her to bear his Son, she could have said no. She could have defied God. (And as a merciful God, would He have/could He have forced her to bear his Son?) But she didn't. She acquiesced to God's plan and bore Jesus. She raised him, loved him, and watched him die. How can one not hold a woman of religious/historical/cultural significance in high regard? It's not worshiping of Mary. It's acknowledging that she did something great and wonderful in our world.

[Giggle Goose]

On a side note, my church was very dedicated to campaigning against all of the "fake" Xians, especially Catholics, Mormons, and Episcopalians. My child self really thought that Catholics spent their Sundays praying to a woman and making up books to add to their Bible, then drinking and gambling until they had to get their stomachs pumped.

You forgot to say that we do shots while we pray the rosary.

But now that I've "grown up," I've learned that "true" Christianity is what I make it.

[Slytovhand]

who decides what's Xtian and what isn't?

I think that there says it all.... it's humans who are deciding, and not the one/s that really matter.

Before the Councils of Nicea, Xtianity was a big massive bundle of different stuff - reincarnation, the sun as God, etc etc..

Then a whole lot of power-brokerage went on, and christianity got 'determined'. About a thousand years later, someone without the power thought 'Hey - this is a bit of a bum deal for us, it needs to change'.. (although, I have left out the persecution of a whole stack of other christians in that period who also didn't agree with what the power-brokers came up with).

That's why in the 'How do you become' thread (I think), that xtians 'should' only take the bits about what JC actually said to be the heart and soul of what christianity should be about (also remembering, that the Bible was put together by humans.. and thus, any other piece of information written about JC from those around at the time - eg Gospel of Thomas - is just as, if not more so*, valid as the 4 in the 'official' Bible).


* more so, because they haven't been tampered with as much.


Does this sound good??

Slyt

[protege]

And the Christians who say they know what is going on with the Catholics don't understand us at all. What has always confused me is how do they get this worship of Mary?

I don't know where that comes from either. Sure, we *revere* her because she was, after all, Jesus' mother. But, she doesn't get the same worship her son or even God does. Even though I'm disillusioned with the idea of organized religion, even I know that It wouldn't surprise me if that rumor got started over one of those stupid Chick tracts

[AFPheonix]

I'm guessing having multiple statues and frescoes and candles and whatnot in Catholic churches made a few protestants think of idol worship. If you ever go into a protestant church, notice the lack of iconic artistry anywhere in there. The most you'll have is a cross somewhere in the sanctuary.

[anriana]

Thanks for all of the responses.


As far as Mary, I was always told that Catholics prayed to her and female saints (oh gasp!) and this was the same as diefying her, as only God has the power to answer prayer.

[IDrinkaRum]

Aaaah ... now I see. However, we do pray to male saints also. But I guess they don't count? (Note the smiley - I'm not being snarky or mean or insulted/insulting).

We pray to the Saints (both male/female and to the Virgin Mary) to intercede to God on our behalf for our prayers. It's kinda like a kid or teen who wants to talk to their parent, but can't, so they go to another trusted adult who helps them talk to their parent. (Did that make any sense? I think I need more sleep or maybe something to take away my heat-induced headache.)

Gah! I'm babbling - so I'll stop now.

[jayel]

May I ask for what reason you would ever feel you couldn't take your prayers directly to God through Jesus?

[anriana]

Aaaah ... now I see. However, we do pray to male saints also. But I guess they don't count? (Note the smiley - I'm not being snarky or mean or insulted/insulting).

They count, but it's not as horrible as praying to a woman.

We pray to the Saints (both male/female and to the Virgin Mary) to intercede to God on our behalf for our prayers. It's kinda like a kid or teen who wants to talk to their parent, but can't, so they go to another trusted adult who helps them talk to their parent. (Did that make any sense? I think I need more sleep or maybe something to take away my heat-induced headache.)

I've heard plenty of people say "I pray to St. Francis, patron saint of animals, to bless these poor suffering animals" or something like that. I've always taken it to mean literally; is it more of a "St. Francis, please lobby God for this" situation?

[Boozy]

May I ask for what reason you would ever feel you couldn't take your prayers directly to God through Jesus?

May I ask why others would feel the need to go through Jesus? Why not take out all the middlemen and just pray to God?

This is a rhetorical question (please don't feel the need to address it), but it points out how silly it is that these kinds of debates to even occur. This is a difference in doctrine. Doctrine isn't based on logic, it's based on what the Church says, or what the Bible says.

It's very difficult to have a rational discussion about something that boils down to Authority A says this and Authority B says that.

[Slytovhand]

It's very difficult to have a rational discussion about something that boils down to Authority A says this and Authority B says that.

If 'discussion' also involves debate, then you can look at the relevance of those Authorities, and also the possible interpretations of what was said.

It's like that joke (the one that ends in 'the word was celebRate'...)... who knows what was the original, and what was meant, and from there, current contexts.

Speaking of which, how much meaning is related to context. For a couple of thousand years (well, maybe 1500) there were a series of attitudes which were dogma related. We hear now things like 'in this day and age'. Does that really matter? If God said something goes 2000 years ago, does it still apply equally today?

(one specific example came to mind.. Jews don't eat the flesh of cleft-hoofed animals, the most obvious being pigs. This seems to be merely a health state, as pigs back then carried various diseases that humans were prone to. These days, we have healthier pigs, and so chances of disease are greatly reduced. So... should the same rule apply?)

And what happens now that medical science can do wonderful things with our bodies? After all, we keep hearing the term 'playing god'... is it really that bad?


Slyt

[jayel]

May I ask why others would feel the need to go through Jesus? Why not take out all the middlemen and just pray to God? This is a difference in doctrine. Doctrine isn't based on logic, it's based on what the Church says, or what the Bible says.

Actually Boozy, I can answer that for you.

First of all, let me say that if this is doctrine, and based on what the Bible says, that's where we're getting our logic from. I'm interested to get to the bottom of our different interpretations, not bashing anyone. This being a debate and discussion forum, surely there's nothing wrong with asking someone to answer a question about their beliefs. I'm not being accusatory, I'm curious. IDrinkaRum has already given a certain amount of explanation regarding this belief, so I felt comfortable asking further questions.

I say pray to God through Jesus because in the Bible Jesus says "No man come unto the Father except by Me." (John 14:6) So while I feel perfectly comfortable praying to God on my own, I always pray in Jesus' name, to recognize the significance of His sacrifice in order for us to be with the Father.

The Bible also says that speaking and communicating with the dead is a sin, so praying to or through a dead person to get to God would not only be unnecessary, it would be unscriptural. (I know some will want to bring Jesus into it here, but just don't. Jesus, being God's own son, is on a totally different playing field than a man or woman).

There is nothing, however, in the Bible, that ever indicates God would be unavailable or unreachable to us except by intermediation. Jesus said "When you pray, pray like this: 'Our Father, which art in Heaven...'" (Matthew 6:9)Saying "Our Father" is contacting God directly. So this tells me that we have just as much right and ability to take our prayers directly to God as one of the Saints would have to pray to Him.

So Boozy, my question is not silly and was a sincere attempt at understanding differences and debate. It also still stands.

IDrinkaRum, I would really like to understand why you would ever feel like you couldn't pray to God directly, on what grounds the Catholic church teaches this practice, or where in the Bible it states intermediation is necessary?