"True" Christianity

[Boozy]

So Boozy, my question is not silly and was a sincere attempt at understanding differences and debate. It also still stands.

Sorry, jayel - I didn't mean to imply that your question was silly or accusatory.

I was just pointing out that discussions about religion differ from say, political debates, because you have to assume certain things to be "fact" when they are in actuality faith-based conclusions.

For Catholics and Protestants, you have the common ground of the Bible, so there's a possibility for debate based on the common belief that what the Bible says is true. So you can argue interpretations.

But in the case of say, Islam and Christianity, you've got one party saying the Koran is the word of God, and the other party saying it's the Bible. Neither side is able to present material evidence to prove the either side wrong, so it always comes down to "Well, my faith simply tells me this is so."

[Slytovhand]

Speaking of authorities, and also of what's 'true' and what's not... and also on Bible and 'how to pray' etc...

What do people here think of non-Bible Gospels? Such as Thomas' ??

[anriana]

Speaking of authorities, and also of what's 'true' and what's not... and also on Bible and 'how to pray' etc...

What do people here think of non-Bible Gospels? Such as Thomas' ??

My opinion probably isn't as relevant as I am not a practicing Xtian, but from what I've seen of the process of choosing the "official" gospels, it wasn't much of a divine experience. My mom wrote a term paper on how most of the information on strong Xtian women was taken out for for Paul's dreck. I personally think the council just chose the books they liked for political reasons - what makes that Scripture more than the books they cut out? What makes the Protestant Bible more official than the Catholic version, or the Jewish/Muslim versions of the OT?


On a side note, I had a customer with a bad phone connection tell me "Thomas, like the book of the Bible." Guess he was a firm believer that it's an official book, heh.

[IDrinkaRum]

As a Catholic, I was taught there were Saints you could pray to for everyday concerns, etc. As in, when I'm searching high and low for something (my daughter's gameboy, my car keys, etc.), I'll pray to Saint Anthony who is the patron Saint of lost things. BAM!!! within the next minute or two, I find whatever I was looking for. Maybe I would have found it without the quick prayer, but in the case of the gameboy, I was looking for it for 3 days, and I found it in the place I'd been searching for the past 3 days without seeing it before then. Why bother God with an inconsequential prayer to find something when Saint Anthony is standing right there, waiting to help me?

[Slytovhand]

I had another question come to mind today... something that people can actually answer (rather than opinion )

Where abouts in the Bible does it say that JC was going to do a return? Did he actually say "I'll be baaaackkk!"... or is it just mentioned in one of the Gospels that it will happen?


Slyt

[Rapscallion]

Speaking of authorities, and also of what's 'true' and what's not... and also on Bible and 'how to pray' etc...

Ah, generally speaking, "true christian/muslim etc" or "enlightened" merely means 'agrees with me'.

Happy to help.

Rapscallion

[jayel]

Why bother God with an inconsequential prayer to find something when Saint Anthony is standing right there, waiting to help me?

I understand the concept, but I still don't see where this is Biblical. The Bible says, "Cast all your care upon Him for He cares for you." (1 Peter 5: 7). It doesn't say there are problems too trivial for God to worry about, and it doesn't mention a St. Anthony. I myself have prayed to God to find lost things many times, and had them turn up shortly, or remembered a place I hadn't looked before.

You mentioned that instead of bothering God, you could pray to St. Anthony who will help you, but in an earlier post you stated that the Saints mediate between you and God. If they mediate, God is still being requisitioned. If St. Anthony can show you where your lost item is all by himself, that paints him as omniscient, something only God is, so that is another unscriptural problem.

I'm also interested to know where all these Saints came from, and how they got their assignments, since they are not mentioned in the Bible. Again, I am not trying to sound accusatory, but I see some major flaws when I try to coordinate the doctrine of the saints with Biblical scripture, and I'm trying to understand where it comes from.

[jayel]

Ah, generally speaking, "true christian/muslim etc" or "enlightened" merely means 'agrees with me'.

Happy to help.

Rapscallion

Too often, this is the case.

A true Christian will base his or her beliefs on the Bible, and be able to back it up with scripture.

[Rapscallion]

Oh, I don't know. I've heard people say that true christians would know from jesus what to do, not just rely on what's in the bible...

Hence the problem. That version is true to them.

Rapscallion

[jayel]

I agree that we can learn a lot based on Jesus' actions. As a Christian, I lean more on the side of mercy and forgiveness than law- as I feel Christ did when He was here. But how would those you mentioned know from Jesus what to do unless they read it in the Bible in the first place? Or did you mean that Jesus would tell them personally what to do?

[IDrinkaRum]

Saints are helpers to God. I don't know why they are deemed necessary, but I like them. There is a female Saint who is the patron saint of dentists & teeth because when she was martyred, her teeth were removed before she was killed. Then there is a Saint Maria Goretti who was murdered by her employer's son while he tried to "compromise her innocence". She was 12. She's the patron saint for children. It is said that while on her deathbed, she forgave her attacker. And while the attacker was in prison, he saw her in a vision. When he got out of prison, he became a monk & was the foremost pusher for her sainthood.

The first saints were the martyrs of Christianity. Saint Stephen was the first Christian Martyr & the First Christian Saint. I have books by the Christian pop group, DC Talk called "Live like a Jesus Freak" and other similar all by DC Talk. Telling about the stories of modern day martyrs and martyred saints. Then there are the Saints who were found, after being dead and buried for hundreds of years (even at least a thousand years) whose bodies were incorruptible. (All the bodies in the crypt had deteriorated as a body normally does, but save for this one body. Why is that? How can one body not mold, and give way, while the body right next to it be just a few bones?) I suppose the Christians/Catholics wanted to honor those people also.

I took the name of Saint Therese of Lisieux when I was confirmed by the Catholic church. She was a young nun who died of tuberculosis at the age of 24. She got special permission from the Pope to enter a Carmelite convent at the age of 15. She wrote poems and her life story on how she saw herself in God's plan. When she died she promised all that she would rain flowers down on the earth as a sign she was still doing God's work in Heaven. She did things in her "own little way". And people find inspiration in her words and the works she did while on this earth and up in heaven.

I'm sorry if this is disjointed. I need to get back on the phone & try to get a doctor's appointment as I'm really sick. Take care!

[IDrinkaRum]

Here are some websites that can explain the whole praying to the Saints thing better than I can whilst in my delirious state (I have a doctor's appointment at 3:15 PM today - woohoo!)

http://catholicism.about.com/od/thes..._to_Saints.htm
http://www.anawim.pair.com/CATHOLICS/SAINTS.htm
http://davidmacd.com/catholic/saints.htm
http://www.catholic.com/library/Saint_Worship.asp

[flybye023]

I had another question come to mind today... something that people can actually answer (rather than opinion )

Where abouts in the Bible does it say that JC was going to do a return? Did he actually say "I'll be baaaackkk!"... or is it just mentioned in one of the Gospels that it will happen?


Slyt

I've been looking and all I can see are mentions of it by His prophets. (these are from the King James Version)

Job 19:25 For I know that my redeemer livith, and that he shall stand at the latter day upon the earth.

Matthew 24:21-31 tells of it although it is very symbolic.

Zechariah 13 and 14 also deal with the Second Coming although, again very symbolic.

Sorry I hope these help though.

[Rapscallion]

Or did you mean that Jesus would tell them personally what to do?

More this one, though I really meant that they would say that jesus had told them what to say/do.

Rapscallion

[BlaqueKatt]

I'm also interested to know where all these Saints came from, and how they got their assignments, since they are not mentioned in the Bible. Again, I am not trying to sound accusatory, but I see some major flaws when I try to coordinate the doctrine of the saints with Biblical scripture, and I'm trying to understand where it comes from.

the Glorification of Saints Is an Act of God himself or herself-God sanctifies the remains or relics through the Holy Spirit-thus a miracle or revelation by God that "this person is a Saint"---it is not in the Bible as it is things that are still occurring-current revelations. The Bible does not cover everything that would ever happen.(***disclaimer***I do not follow any Western religion-but I was strict Roman Catholic for many years-I was raised that way-even confirmed)


Any specific ones-I have a dictionary of saints-all 12,000 of them-how they lived, why they were cannonized, and when they became saints and for what.

And the list is online here with the information

Hey I found Santa Claus on the list-seriously St Nicholas-and he is listed as Santa Claus

here is a brief Wiki article on Cannonization.


The Glorification of saints is considered to be an act of God, not a declaration of the hierarchy. When an individual who has been sanctified by the grace of the Holy Spirit falls asleep in the Lord, God may or may not choose to glorify the individual through the manifestation of miracles. If He does, the devotion to the saint will normally grow from the "grass roots" level. Eventually, as the Holy Spirit manifests more miracles, the devotion to the individual grows. At this point there are no formal prayers by the Church to the individual. Rather, memorial services are served at the grave of the individual, praying for him or her—though an individual may pray privately to someone who has not yet been formally Glorified, and even commission Icons, which may be kept in the home but not displayed in the Temple. The Glorification service does not "make" the individual a saint; rather, the Church is simply making a formal acknowledgement of what God has already manifested.

Sometimes, one of the signs of sanctification is the condition of the Relics of the Saint. Some saints will be incorrupt, meaning that their remains do not decay under conditions when they normally would (natural mummification is not the same as incorruption). Sometimes even when the flesh does decay the bones themselves will manifest signs of sanctity. They may be honey colored or give off a sweet aroma. Some relics will exude myrrh.