God Makes you stupid

[anriana]

Snooty? I could say that about the academic community, however, I can also say it about the religious community.

Not saying that you do any of this, but the "snooty" comment is not appreciated.

So you agree that the academic community is snooty and then take offense to my saying so? Odd.

[Boozy]

No one is calling anyone here "snooty", so there's no reason for anyone to be taking anything personally. The topic of this thread is treacherous enough; let's not focus on one offhand comment that was just made as an example.

Also - a reminder that should anyone find something offensive here, you can use the report button, just like you would at CS.

[IDrinkaRum]

I'm not "snooty". I also don't think I'm stupid. My I. Q. is roughly 140 (if memory serves me correctly). I am also religious. No, I don't go to church every Sunday, but I love being a Catholic. I've read the Bible. I love to read about the Saints. I believe in God. But I'm not OMG!! You're not Catholic/Christian and hate you for it. I know there are other beliefs out there. If they were the "wrong" religions, don't you think, they would have been abandoned by now and everyone would be following the "one true path" - whatever that is?

[MystyGlyttyr]

In this case, I want to think ignorance is bliss.

See, smart people like me, that is, people who think too freaking much for their own good, might start probing too deeply into the "What existed before God" "Where did God come from" "How did this happen" "How did that happen" stuff, and eventually they get too frustrated with not being able to make a logical sense from it and start thinking it might be easier to just not believe in God. So then they move their topic of thought elsewhere and supposedly that makes them "smarter". Or something.

(Except some of us, instead, then start thinking "Well, without a God, then what created everything? Where did that first singularity come from?" URGH. Brain be damned either way.)

Sometimes I am actually jealous of people who ARE able to just accept their faith without questioning it too strenuously, who just know that God is up there and that's good enough for them. Not the asshole my-way-or-no-way folks, but just the ones who have faith just for faith's sake. Man, I wish I could be like that.

[Flyndaran]

I was born an atheist. The very concept of faith is alien to me.
Religion seems like a cultural defense mechanism to avoid dealing with mortality.
I hope humanity will eventually evolve to accept reality. But until then, my kind will be a very small minority.

[Flyndaran]

I doubt intelligence has anything to do with superstition.
People will use as complex rationalizations and mental gymnastics as they can to explain that which they arrived at from non-thinking reasons.
The smarter the superstitious person the more involved the explanation.

[Slytovhand]

I was born an atheist. The very concept of faith is alien to me.
Religion seems like a cultural defense mechanism to avoid dealing with mortality.
I hope humanity will eventually evolve to accept reality. But until then, my kind will be a very small minority.

That sounds very much like what any believer of many of the world's faiths would say, if they were so arrogant to believe theirs is the only true faith.

Many very very intelligent people (by the world's standard) choose to believe in a 'higher' being - going by what ever name they choose to use (if any).

And, there's good reason to.

This isn't to say that the vast majority of people out there believe in things without giving much, or any, thought to it all.

There are questions science can't answer. Similarly, there are questions that the various individual religions have certain difficulties with (though, each of those religions have different questions, due to the nature of the religion).

So, religion and intelligence (or wisdom) isn't a 1=1 affair (even if clerics need a high Wis to cast their spells!)

I doubt intelligence has anything to do with superstition.
People will use as complex rationalizations and mental gymnastics as they can to explain that which they arrived at from non-thinking reasons.
The smarter the superstitious person the more involved the explanation.

I'm not sure where you're coming from here.. cos on one hand it sounds like you're trying to say that scientists (the complex rationalisations adn mental gymnasitcs) are merely finding 'reason' to not accept other beliefs... while they can't answer all of their own questions, they still presume to know better than those who don't go in search of those answers, having already found one.

I'd say that intelligence is directly linked with the level of superstition, but superstition isn't the same thing as belief. It can be easy (and overly simplistic) to just presume that because someone believes something that is different and doesn't fit in with everyone else's reality, then they're 'superstitious' or even just making stuff up! (perfect example is animism... they experience 'alternate realities' which the rest of humanity rarely does... does that mean they're merely highly imaginative???)

[Flyndaran]

That sounds very much like what any believer of many of the world's faiths would say, if they were so arrogant to believe theirs is the only true faith.

Is it really arrogance to assume that that which I sense is real and that for which there is no evidence whatsoever and violates the rules of that which I sense is wrong?
Is it arrogance to state that you do not have an invisible intangible unicorn in your house? No, it is arrogance to say that I am wrong when you have no proof or reason beyond a simple, "because I say so."

Many very very intelligent people (by the world's standard) choose to believe in a 'higher' being - going by what ever name they choose to use (if any).

That's a call to authority falacy. There are many intelligent mentally ill people and racists. So what?

And, there's good reason to.

What reasons are there to willfully believe in things with no proof and that violate all verifiable rules of reality? Before I criticise what you think, I really should be sure of what that is.

This isn't to say that the vast majority of people out there believe in things without giving much, or any, thought to it all.

I don't care how much effort went into believing religion, racism, or anything else. Sheer effort doesn't negate facts despite what many fundies prefer to believe.

There are questions science can't answer. Similarly, there are questions that the various individual religions have certain difficulties with (though, each of those religions have different questions, due to the nature of the religion).

What questions are these that science can't answer and religion can?

So, religion and intelligence (or wisdom) isn't a 1=1 affair (even if clerics need a high Wis to cast their spells!)

I for one never said they were incompatible. A mathematical, musical, artistic, physical, etc. talent has nothing to do with superstions.

I'm not sure where you're coming from here.. cos on one hand it sounds like you're trying to say that scientists (the complex rationalisations adn mental gymnasitcs) are merely finding 'reason' to not accept other beliefs... while they can't answer all of their own questions, they still presume to know better than those who don't go in search of those answers, having already found one.

You seem to be using scientists as a comparable term to cleric. They aren't at all alike. A scientist is listened to when backed up by verifiable data and ignored in all other ways, in a scientific field that is. Clerics get listened to about any and all subjects no matter how little or even non-existant their experience or education is and verification is completely out of the picture.

I'd say that intelligence is directly linked with the level of superstition, but superstition isn't the same thing as belief. It can be easy (and overly simplistic) to just presume that because someone believes something that is different and doesn't fit in with everyone else's reality, then they're 'superstitious' or even just making stuff up! (perfect example is animism... they experience 'alternate realities' which the rest of humanity rarely does... does that mean they're merely highly imaginative???)

Believing something that directly contradicts known laws of reality is superstition. Just because religious people don't like the term means nothing.
If you were to see an apparition, then the most logical thing to think would be trick of the light, illusions, stress, or possibly hallucination. If you've exhausted those reasons, to your satisfaction, then the rational you may believe in apparitions, but only as to what you saw. Any other interpretation would be guessing.
But as I have never seen anything that violates reality as is commonly accepted, I have no reason to simply take your word for it. I would actually be gullible to believe you at face value. From anyone else's perspective the logical interpretation would be that you made a mistake with mental illness be a distant second.

Too often the difference between superstion and religion is all a matter of how many believe the same thing. One guy in alberta believes in an all knowing gremlin that lives in his basement? Superstitous/Nut. One million believing in capricious magically powerful humanoids living on Mount Olympus? Religion. Oh, wait there aren't many of them left, so we can downgrade that to mythology.

[AFPheonix]

What questions are these that science can't answer and religion can?

Philosophical matters are outside of the realm of the measurable and tangible. Ethics also fall into that group.

Frankly, I don't care what someone does or does not believe. As long as their beliefs to not impinge on anyone else, they can believe they have a pet pink elephant in their living room that shits out marshmallows for all I care.

[Boozy]

What questions are these that science can't answer and religion can?

Science, by it's very nature, cannot tackle questions that do not led themselves to the scientific method. The scientific method involves making hypotheses and testing these hypotheses. It requires observational data inducted from experiments, or proofs deducted from mathematical theory.

As such, there are myriads of questions that science cannot tackle, such as the existence of God. You could make the hypothesis that there is no God, but you can't prove it. You could also make the hypothesis that there is a God...but again, you can't prove it. So science doesn't bother.

When it comes to such questions, it is not uncommon for people to turn to spirituality. Material atheists do not, but that doesn't mean everyone else is wrong. There are scientists in every religion. They adhere to strict scientific principles in all things they can, and make leaps of faith in the areas they cannot.

[Scamper]

I was born an atheist. The very concept of faith is alien to me.

Faith is a belief in something without proof.
An axiom is something that is believed without proof.

According to the Transitive Property of Equality (if a=b and b=c, then a=c), faith and axiom are equal because they are both believed without proof.

I personally have seen certain things that cause me to believe that there is a god. I have yet to see anyone explain Tongues in any other way, perhaps you would care to take a stab at it? The blanket statement that seeing something that contradicts what one believes is merely a hallucination-by any name, is pure arrogance, the equivalent of stating that one knows everything.

As far as stating that intelligent people don't have religion/believe in god, Science itself has been called a religion, and the way some people react to anti-evolution statements does nothing to dispel the idea.

[Flyndaran]

Those that call science a religion are wrong. Just because they base their entire existance around what some ancient book written in allegory, metaphor, and verifiably false statements says, they feel that everyone must do something similiar with some other faith based system.
They are wrong.
I don't have faith. I don't need faith. I don't want faith.
Faith is a belief DESPITE the proof. People die and rot. That is the fact and proof we see every day. Faith is believing that someone thousands of years ago popped back up again because a book says so.

If someone admits to seeing fairies, then I have the right to ask if they've taken their medication lately. I don't have any obligation to accept them at their word. I have no right to force them or anyone to give up their superstitions. But I'll be damned (heh) if even for a moment I lend any validity to them.

Evolution has been so proven beyond any doubt as to render critics as sad pathetic flat earthers grasping at straws that they can't even understand.
Have you read any of their uneducated meanderings? It's frightening that people that dumb could form sentences let alone make a living at it.

[Flyndaran]

Science, by it's very nature, cannot tackle questions that do not led themselves to the scientific method. The scientific method involves making hypotheses and testing these hypotheses. It requires observational data inducted from experiments, or proofs deducted from mathematical theory.

As such, there are myriads of questions that science cannot tackle, such as the existence of God. You could make the hypothesis that there is no God, but you can't prove it. You could also make the hypothesis that there is a God...but again, you can't prove it. So science doesn't bother.

When it comes to such questions, it is not uncommon for people to turn to spirituality. Material atheists do not, but that doesn't mean everyone else is wrong. There are scientists in every religion. They adhere to strict scientific principles in all things they can, and make leaps of faith in the areas they cannot.

I can't prove the non-existance of butt unicorns, so must I accept them as valid beliefs? Of course not. Only accepted religions get the exemption from reason.

Mentioning scientists is a call to authority falacy. I don't care what a chemist says about metallurgy, so why should I care what they say about religion or philosophy?

Of course people turn to all sorts of defense mechanisms to avoid coming to grips with reality. Religion is the opiate of the masses in a more literal way than most think. You and I will eventually end and cease to exist. That sucks more than any other fact we will every understand. Pretending that it doesn't apply to you, me, humans, etc. despite the evidence and just because you REALLY REALLY want to live forever doesn't change the facts.


Also as to the god hypothosis, the appropriate scientific method would be that it doesn't exist and conduct experiments to prove that it does. Lots of people have tried and come up with not one example, so the theory stands. There is no god.
Don't like it?.. then come up with your own experiments, and tell me when you find some verifiable evidence. Until then, the rational view is that gods don't exist.

[Scamper]

Faith is a belief DESPITE the proof.

I have given the dictionary definition of faith. I have given the dictionary definition of axiom. I have PROVEN that faith and axiom are identical. You continue to believe - "DESPITE the proof" that faith is intrinsically false. Your belief is self-contradictory and - by the methods of science, proven wrong.
Our main problem was mentioned by Tang in:
http://tang.comicgenesis.com/d/20021027.html
I am a type 2, You are a type 3.
Believing that someone died and came back to life 2000 years ago is faith, believing that somebody recently got healed is not. I have seen the video. Would you believe it? No, you would come up with some sort of explanation that doesn't disturb your world view, whether video editing, or lying, or something else. Truthfully, however, one could say that about any proof for anything.

[Sylvia727]

If someone wants to believe that there is no God, they can go ahead. And if someone wants to believe that there is a god, gods, spirits, afterlife, or any other religion, they can go ahead too. For atheism to quarrel with the other religions is just as stupid as Christianity quarreling with Wicca, or Islam quarreling with Hinduism.

Granted, there are assholes on every side. But I am continually impressed by the people who claim that religion is a mass delusion and then proceed to start religious flamewars. Is it really that important? Why does it matter if you believe in the magical sky fairy and I don't? Is your mere belief so painful to me that I must stamp it out?