morality test

[crazylegs]

But I think BlaqueKatt's scenario presents a good question. How about rephrasing it? How about asking, "There is a child right now, in the present, whom for whatever reason you KNOW will grow up to be the next Hitler/Pol Pot/Stalin. Do you kill him or her?"

No.

These people filled a void, if you kill them another will fill it instead with similar consequences.

[Slytovhand]

No.

These people filled a void, if you kill them another will fill it instead with similar consequences.

Given that... therefore, Ghandhi and ML King et al were just...'pawns to history' - people to fill a void..

Yes?

It also seems to imply a 'nature' personality, versus 'nurture', as well - would you agree with that? Because it seems to imply that people wouldn't have changed if they were influenced by someone else.

[crazylegs]

Given that... therefore, Ghandhi and ML King et al were just...'pawns to history' - people to fill a void..

Yes?

Yes, someone had to step up to highlight a struggle, it was those men who did so, even if those men were killed before they had made an impact another would have stepped up to highlight the issue.

[Slytovhand]

Fairy Floss...

I understand where you're coming from in regards to tensions in society for voids to be filled, but what about in general? Would someone have stepped into GW's shoes if he wasn't around? And then done pretty much the same sort of thing? (after all, if we can pick on people like Hitler, Pol Pot etc, surely there would be some Iraqis who might name GW as a major protagonist...)


Slyt

[Greenday]

Anyone here ever play the game Command & Conquer: Red Alert? Excellent example of why I wouldn't.

For those who haven't played the game, a time-machine is built and someone goes back in time and gets rid of Hitler. As a result, a massive war between USA and USSR begins. Great...

[RecoveringKinkoid]

Yes. But the question is really would I kill myself to save 14 million from the Holocaust.

Because I'd have to kill myself after.

I'm serious. Your question actually caused me to get a horrible icy chill and I felt my stress level spike. I'm THAT averse to harm to a child. I'm not sure if I could make myself, even knowing what I know. I'd probably have to drown us both or jump from a height at the same time or something.

God, what a horrible question. But no, it's a good one, very thought provoking.

So yeah. I'd have to do it to save 14 milliion people. But I'd not live after it. I would not be able to live with the horror that I'd killed a child.

[AFPheonix]

It seems like that time would be better spent scaring the crap out of the leaders who decided Germany's punishment after WWI, thereby saving a lot of poor Germans heartache as well as saving everyone else from having to fight in and suffer the consequences of WWII.
Russia would probably be a whole different place today, as would China and Japan.

[RecoveringKinkoid]

I just realized I only answered part of the question.

Yes, someone else could have done worse But someone else didn't. Hitler did. And it doesn't matter if you MIGHT create a future where you remove Hitler and make things worse, because by killing the kid you change the odds regardless.

Option 1: Kill Hitler.
You've changed your odds to include a chance that the Holocaust wouldn't happen ever. You give tens of millions of people a chance to live.

Option 2: Don't kill Hitler
Your odds for the Holocaust happening stay the same...100 percent chance of it happening. Millions of people die without a chance.

Taking out one kid you know beyond a shadow of a doubt will grow up to be one of the world's greatest evils is worth that. Because say there IS a greater power for evil than Hitler. Leave Hitler alive, and now you have two of them. Besides, he might have been crummy at tactics, but he had something more powerful...charisma. You can do far more damage with charisma than you can with a gun. If you have charisma, you have a gun. You have everything you need.

[Zyanya]

He's a figure in many of the mythologies of religions that arose in the Fertile Crescent. Unfortunately, since he predated Christ and more importantly, the followers who came up with Christianity as a religion, he was not a Christian.

Still looks like he was the first man in Christian mythology. If you are just going to do this silly nitpicking, don't bother responding to my posts, cause this is the last time I'll respond to this nonsense.

Zyanya, so was Jesus. But he was a Jew. Hm.

Way to miss the point entirely.

That being - any other evil dude can be replaced. The only way to prevent humanity from doing evil things is to prevent humanity from existing.

[MystyGlyttyr]

I couldn't. Not as a child. As a grown man, yes, I think I could kill Hitler, easily, and just hope for the best in the future. But children are, by their nature, innocent. It's a rare exception that a child raised in a loving environment with any degree of decent morality will still turn into an evil, murderous bastard...and those exceptions can't necessarily help themselves, as the problem is something within themself they can't control.

I'm sure a lot of people disagree with me, but I do believe there exists Bad People, who are just inherently evil and nothing that is ever done could have changed them.

But most people, I think are more or less victims of circumstance and weak constitution. You have to work hard to overcome a painful, horrible upbringing or life event, and a lot of people just aren't equipped for it, and make the choice to just give in to the darkness. Some...and I myself am most likely in this group...are lucky enough to be saved at the last minute by someone loving and perfect who comes along at just the right time to help a person pull themself out of the void. But most people have to make the choice to fight nurture on their own, and won't do it.

All that being said, I don't think Hitler was a Bad Person. I think had his circumstances been different, he could have grown up to become a great leader and a voice for wonderful things. He had the potential to be one of the greatest assets the world had ever seen. It just didn't come together for him that way, and he didn't make the choice to try and overcome it.

I can't raise my hand to an innocent child, no matter what the outcome could be. It's a weakness I won't choose to overcome.

[Boozy]

All that being said, I don't think Hitler was a Bad Person. I think had his circumstances been different, he could have grown up to become a great leader and a voice for wonderful things.

I've read several biographies about Hitler, and I disagree.

He showed pretty typical sociopathic tendencies as a child. When fighting in World War I, he was despised by his fellow soldiers for being too "gleeful" about all the killing. He wrote that WWI was the "best time of his life".

If Hitler was not a "Bad Person", then who is?

[Greenday]

I could have sworn that Hitler was only a messenger during WWI.

[crazylegs]

I could have sworn that Hitler was only a messenger during WWI.

He topped out at the rank of Corporal, received the Iron Cross and was gassed (hence why he never used it during WWII), even if he was just a messenger in WWI everyone fought when they needed to.

[MystyGlyttyr]

He showed pretty typical sociopathic tendencies as a child.

So did I. Hell, I still do. I tortured animals, burnt bugs, froze mice in the freezer, etc. The thing was that until my mom caught me at it, NO ONE TOLD ME IT WAS WRONG. Most of the animals didn't make any noise to let me know they were in pain. Being Aspie, I didn't automatically realize how to sympathize with other creatures. I had to have it actually explained to me that doing certain things hurt other living things. Once my behavior was caught and corrected, I stopped doing it. But if tomorrow, I killed someone for any reason, armchair psychiatrists would pop out from everywhere to point to these previous behaviors as evidence that I'm something that, honestly, I know I'm not.

I haven't studied any of the newer bios or anything to come out about Hitler, so I never read anything regarding his habits in war. But to be perfectly honest, I would be in my element in a war zone. I tried to enlist several times but was turned down for essentially bullshit medical reasons. I wouldn't necessarily be "gleeful" about killing, but it's not necessarily something I would stress over too much. And hell, a war might BE the best part of my life, because I would feel as though I were doing something important, something to serve my country and my people, rather than just sitting on my ass in an office fighting petty little battles with cranky soccer moms.

To some other people, the fact that I could kill in certain situations without too much thought would be another evidence of my being a sociopath. But I'm NOT. I don't think a sociopath would cry when she accidently hit a cat with her car, or get upset because she had a friend who was dumped, etc. I have feelings. They're just not the same as everyone else's.

I'm trying not to be too sensitive and I don't want to sound like I'm attacking you, because I don't want to do that. But I've had too many people try to paint me with the wrong brush based on only one side of my story. Maybe that makes me more...I don't know, sympathetic to Hitler. Don't get me wrong...I don't defend his actions. I'm not saying what he did wasn't atrociously evil and I'm certainly not saying he wouldn't deserve to die for it, because they were and he did. I just don't think he was inherently bad. Just misled, maligned, and ultimately weak.

And, to me, taking that child, who still had the potential, and killing them outright, just wouldn't be right. Damn me to hell for it, but I couldn't choose to hurt a child who wasn't an immediate threat in some way.

As for who I personally think of as inherently bad, I wouldn't be able to tell you without sparking off an entire nother raging debate. But they're alive and well in this day and age and the thought of them terrifies me to no end.

[BlaqueKatt]

Once my behavior was caught and corrected, I stopped doing it.

And according to this article

"There currently is no form of psychotherapy that works with those with antisocial personality disorder, as those with this disorder have no desire to change themselves, which is a prerequisite. No medication is available either. The only treatment is the prevention of the disorder in the early stages, when a child first begins to show the symptoms of conduct disorder. "

It can be prevented, but not treated, go hug your mom for doing that.......