My problem with Evangelical Atheism

[SkullKing]

Care to mention something that's NOT an Abrahamic religion?

Aztec human sacrifice?

[protege]

Its amazing that Islam gets such a bad rap in the western world these days considering all they've contributed.

Agreed. Unfortunately, those things mean nothing in the name of the various things--bombings and rocket attacks against Israel, terror attacks against the airlines in the 1970s and '80s, plus 9/11--all of which were perpetuated by assholes attempting to use Islam as an excuse. Throw in the stereotypes perpetuated in the media, and it's no wonder that some people think that anyone who follows Islam...is automatically a terrorist or someone to be feared.

[Hyena Dandy]

Aztec human sacrifice?

Ghel said "When X stops"

For the most part, that has stopped. I don't think it's still going anyway.

Edit: Also, I said "Or something any of the theists in this thread have advocated." Or something along those lines. I didn't advocate human sacrifice.

[SkullKing]

Ghel said "When X stops"

For the most part, that has stopped. I don't think it's still going anyway.

Edit: Also, I said "Or something any of the theists in this thread have advocated." Or something along those lines. I didn't advocate human sacrifice.

Fair enough.

For the first part a lot of African religious killings fit the bill(i.e.: The hunting of albinos).

For the second, I don´t think Ghel was talking about anyone on this thread.

[HYHYBT]

http://freefall.purrsia.com/ff1400/fc01386.htm

No, but the moral high ground is often claimed by the Atheist camp because they can do "good" without a belief in something higher. It crops up quite a bit here. Arguing that theists only do good because of theism, whilst atheists do good despite it. Therefore atheist good > theist good. Which is a painful fallacy on many levels.

One such level is the premise that theists only do good because they think God told them to. Of course, some do; but others use that only the other way around. If I do something good (or avoid doing something bad) it's generally not "God said behave like this, and he's all powerful and can send me to Hell" or anything like that in my thoughts. But I do often think along the lines of "this is clearly better than that, and God is good, therefore those who say he wants that rather than this must be either mistaken or lying."

But I would LOVE to see the Church take accountability for the pedophile priests and make real reforms to fix the problem and heal the victims.

One thing that tends to get lost. A lot of people enjoy discussing that as if the Church's involvement were as a group of people who like abusing kids finding a way to do so, when it's a relatively small number who did the abusing (probably about in line with what you'd find elsewhere). The Church's problem is in its reaction.

Sure . . . if we're talking science. Religion is not science, and science does not deal with the supernatural. You cannot apply scientific rules to something that is not scientific to begin with.

This seems a good place to point out that "everything real fits within scientific rules" or anything similar is itself a positive assertion on which those making it bear the burden of proof, if they're going to insist on that rule.

[Gravekeeper]

Working from memory of an older discussion from years ago, islam actually maintained a fair amount of knowledge such as algebra and the like, also that zero was also a number, but they didn't invent it. That came from the Hindus of the Kush Valley.

Correct. They discovered and invented all sorts of crap when they began translating all the Greek's goodies into Arabic. Especially in the realm of math and chemistry. They considered science a religious pursuit as science was the means to understand the nature of God's creation. To know science was to better understand God's glory. It wasn't until around 1500 AD when fundie dicks amongst their ranks started messing with the idea as they do now in Christianity. Islam went through the whole song and dance Christianity is today, but a few hundred years prior. -.-

Agreed. Unfortunately, those things mean nothing in the name of the various things--bombings and rocket attacks against Israel, terror attacks against the airlines in the 1970s and '80s, plus 9/11--all of which were perpetuated by assholes attempting to use Islam as an excuse. Throw in the stereotypes perpetuated in the media, and it's no wonder that some people think that anyone who follows Islam...is automatically a terrorist or someone to be feared.

Which is sad, as the Middle East is an extremely small portion of the world's Muslim population. But its all the US fixates on. Meanwhile, other Muslim countries are functioning democracies that already have the US beat by having female heads of state. -.-

[SkullKing]

http://freefall.purrsia.com/ff1400/fc01386.htm

You beat me to it.

That comic has a lot of silliness, but also has some very well-thought discussions about the nature of self.

It is a good read.

[Boozy]

....What in the world is an atheist religion?

Confucianism, Taoism, and Buddhism have all been described as atheistic religions, although some people (including myself) believe that they're more philosophies than religions.

[Gravekeeper]

Confucianism, Taoism, and Buddhism have all been described as atheistic religions, although some people (including myself) believe that they're more philosophies than religions.

As the resident FrankenBuddhist perhaps I can explain:

You are 1/3rd correct. Buddhism is both. It depends on the school and sect. Taoism is also both. Only Confucianism is a strictly philosophy alone. The thing about Buddhism and Taoism is that they have elements which can be taken seperately as a philosophy without damaging the philosophy. As the philosophy is not bound to any supernatural elements like it is with western religion.

You can seperate Buddhism and Tare. You can seperate Taoism and the Eight Immortals. You can't seperate Christ and Christianity. As western religions are worship focused and tied to that which they claim originated them. So its difficult to seperate them into a secular philosophy. Buddhism and Taoism come apart easily though and can be followed as secular or even atheistist philosophies. Buddhism and Taosim offer philosophical Pro-tips for anyone of any religion without having to cheat on your particular deity as they do not require worship or subservience to benefit from the club.

But I'd say the key difference is that eastern religions tend to seperate the how and the why. With a Western religion it tends to be do X because God said its good. Eastern religion tends to be more like do x because here's how it affects people and the world so it's a good idea, here allow it us to explain it at length if you have an hour or two to spare, hey where are you going? >.>

In the schools and sects of Buddhism which have "deities", its not in the western sense. There are no all powerful creator sort of deities as Buddhism has no creation myths nor any big boss upstairs. Buddhist deities tend to formerly be mortals of one world or another and may become mortal again. They are not superpowered so to speak and have no power over the universe in any way let alone anything you would call "power" at all. You see this a fair bit with deities through out asian.

The relationship with western religions between you and upstairs is usually child / parent or servant / master. With an eastern religion like Buddhism its more like you / plus a good friend that's always got a shoulder for you who hopes you're doing okay. ;p

[Ghel]

Care to mention something that's NOT an Abrahamic religion?

Many of the things I listed apply to other religions, as well. Christianity is not the only religion with pedophile priests - even Buddhists have them. Almost every religion has "holy men" who are given respect they haven't earned. Faith healers are found in almost every religion (and outside of religion, too).

The reason these things persist in religion, when they could be eradicated from a non-religious situation, is the belief in the supernatural. ANYTHING can be justified by supernatural beliefs. All you have to say is, "it's God's will" and suddenly abuse, torture, genocide, and a whole host of other evils can be rationalized. Since the supernatural has no measurable effect on the real world, there's no way for anyone to verify what is claimed about it.

Edit: Or anything that a theist in this thread has actually advocated?

In general, I don't have a problem with the things the relgious members of this board advocate. But I do have a problem with religion in general, as I described above.

"Who exactly are the Nones? “None” is not a movement, but a label for a diverse group of people who do not identify with any of the myriad of religious options in the American religious marketplace – the irreligious, the unreligious, the anti-religious, and the anti-clerical. Some believe in God; some do not. Some may participate occasionally in religious rituals; others never will.

Nones are easily misunderstood. On the one hand, only a small minority are atheists. On the otherhand, it is also not correct to describe them as “unchurched” or “unaffiliated” on the assumption that they are mainly theists and religious searchers who are temporarily between congregations."

People are drifting away from religion. This is good. Although I don't always agree with spiritual, unchurched, or unaffiliated individuals, they're not the ones calling for all the horrible things that religions advocate. So I generally don't have a problem with them.

[SkullKing]

M


People are drifting away from religion. This is good. Although I don't always agree with spiritual, unchurched, or unaffiliated individuals, they're not the ones calling for all the horrible things that religions advocate. So I generally don't have a problem with them.

I am not so sure that can be said from the study you linked. They seem to be drifting from organized religion.

I am not trying to be nit-picky. I honestly think it is an important distinction to make.

[Andara Bledin]

Many of the things I listed apply to other religions, as well. Christianity is not the only religion with pedophile priests - even Buddhists have them. Almost every religion has "holy men" who are given respect they haven't earned. Faith healers are found in almost every religion (and outside of religion, too).

So, essentially, any sufficiently large group of people will have the same sort of demographics as other groups.

And don't argue that the church makes it easier on pedos than they'd have it otherwise. Just do a little research on some of the horrific things that are done by foster families to the orphans they take in, all in the name of being fucked up people, and how the system will protect them; not because it's mandated from above, but because they don't want to have to admit that they screwed up. It's a very human foible and if you look hard enough, you'll find it in every sufficiently large group of humans you care to dredge up.

You keep starting from a result and cherry-picking reports to support your result. The true scientist would start from a hypothesis and go from there with an open mind.

^-.-^

[Duelist925]

*snip*
Hmm, if you don't tell us, I'll have to put it in the site rules that you are going to tell us.
*snip*
Rapscallion

That would be an interesting rule. "Duelist has to tell that one story about the Atheist cleric." =P
(sorry for the delay, had to talk to my friend to refresh my memory.)


Basicly, it was supposed to be a short humour game (ie, make a weird or wacky character) but everyone enjoyed it so much they wound up taking it to Epic Levels before quitting. My friend was an Atheist Cleric, who derived his power from his Nonbelief. (He also wore copper wire in his clothes, attached to tacks in his sandals, since he tended to get struck by lightning a lot. ) Other charas included a CG forgeborn bard who did synthpop and beat boxing, a CN were dire-squirrel, a CG masked ranger who was really a beehive that had gained hivemind sentience, and a Hip-Hop monk deciple of FU, who was the forgeborns best friend. Im still ticked I never got to play in that group.

He got a few special feats and dailies whereby he could actually disbelieve hard enough to Undo something--like a wizards spell, but it worked best on enemy clerics spells. At higher level, he managed to start disbelieving things out of existence entirely, including the devine minion of the BBEG of the campaign. This thoroughly pissed off said BBEG and the BBEG god, who pretty much hijacked the BBEG's body, and used it to manifest as a physical god.

Party of quirky heroes shows up, kicks in the door, and starts trying to kick said gods ass. And mostly succeeds, but through some bad rolls, the gods manifestation manages to knock most of them aside/unconscious/frozen etc, etc, until he staring down with the Atheist Cleric. Who promptly stares him in the eyes, and says, "I don't believe in fairies." Then my friend managed to roll high enough, with the bonus's from the bard and equipment and such, to push the already kinda wrecked god over the edge, and pretty much disbelieve it out of existence.

Since this was supposed to be the end of the campaign, the dm promptly said they all got a massive taste of the gods dieing power, and ascended. Since the Cleric was closest, he got the most, and became the God of Atheism, and promptly began having a severe existential crisis.

Many of the things I listed apply to other religions, as well. Christianity is not the only religion with pedophile priests - even Buddhists have them. Almost every religion has "holy men" who are given respect they haven't earned. Faith healers are found in almost every religion (and outside of religion, too).

The reason these things persist in religion, when they could be eradicated from a non-religious situation, is the belief in the supernatural. ANYTHING can be justified by supernatural beliefs. All you have to say is, "it's God's will" and suddenly abuse, torture, genocide, and a whole host of other evils can be rationalized. Since the supernatural has no measurable effect on the real world, there's no way for anyone to verify what is claimed about it.

As has been pointed out before, you can justify the same things uses blind nationalism, racism, political ideals, etc,etc, etc. Religion in and of itself is not to blame--its people who refuse to THINK. and people who take advantage of the nonthinking people. And FUCKHEADS.

In general, I don't have a problem with the things the relgious members of this board advocate. But I do have a problem with religion in general, as I described above.


People are drifting away from religion. This is good. Although I don't always agree with spiritual, unchurched, or unaffiliated individuals, they're not the ones calling for all the horrible things that religions advocate. So I generally don't have a problem with them.

...You have not given one argument against religion that can't also be used against any large grouping. I still fail to see how religion is inherently harmful, and harms so many. Yes it had done evil, but as Gravekeeper pointed out (many times) the evil it has done pales in comparison to a host of other reasons people have been fuckheads. It can be used as a justification for evil, but....wow, anything can. Politics, race, nationalism, anything. Because there are fundie assholes being fuckheads today? Why? Why is religion inherently harmful?


Incidentally, I technically qualify as one of the "nones" since I'm undecided, but nominally christian. Many of my friends are similar.

[Ghel]

Why is religion inherently harmful?

Because it's wrong. Most supernatural claims have no effect on the real world. And those that are claimed to have an effect on the real world have, time and time again, been shown to be false.

Faith healing, for example, has no verifiable source, but its results have been shown to be false. Prayer has been shown to have no positive effect (and in some cases a negative effect, probably due to performance anxiety) on healing after surgeries. No verifiable evidence has been found for an afterlife, and insufficient evidence to support reincarnation. Same for ghosts, demons, and angels.

Belief in an afterlife prevents people from enjoying the life that they have. Belief in some supernatural agent of justice prevents people from seeking to improve their own situations in life. Belief in possession prevents diagnosis of real, treatable mental illnesses.

These are all harms that stem directly from a belief in the supernatural, which is the cornerstone of religion.

[SkullKing]

Because it's wrong.

Belief in an afterlife prevents people from enjoying the life that they have. Belief in some supernatural agent of justice prevents people from seeking to improve their own situations in life. Belief in possession prevents diagnosis of real, treatable mental illnesses.

These are all harms that stem directly from a belief in the supernatural, which is the cornerstone of religion.

I agree this is true, however, I would like to present the following counter-argument to your first two examples:

Belief in the afterlife helps people enjoy the life they have since they don´t need to worry about their loved ones who have gone before, they can deal better with grief.

Belief in a supernatural agent of justice helps people improve their situation in life since they can focus on their current problems secure in the knowledge that those who have harmed them will be punished accordingly. In other words: It makes easier for them to let go of things on which they would waste time and get stressed over.

Also, there are some studies that show religious people are happier even if the results have nothing to do with the supernatural.(http://news.discovery.com/human/reli...ial-bonds.html)

While I do believe that some religions are harmful (including, but not restricted to, fundies in general)

I do not think it is fair to say religions are inherently harmful. Even if what good they have done could be done byu a completely non-supernatural source it doesn´t negate the fact that good has been done