My problem with Evangelical Atheism

[Andara Bledin]

It's more than me not doing nothing. We had a lot of rather lengthy chats on Facebook a while back when he was feeling really down.

To know that he can't trust me, despite that, merely because I identify as Christian and nothing more is really... hateful.

^-.-^

[Ipecac Drano]

Citation needed. Give me the exact quote from God in the Bible where he says he hates gays if you would please. Seeing as not even Christians agree on this, I'm sure they'll be ecstatic to know you figured it out. >.>

Leviticus 20:13 If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them.

Sentencing someone to death isn't exactly tough love.

Christ was an ok guy. I'd really love to figure out how he could be labelled a hatemonger? Please cite.

Here's one example:

Luke 14:25-27 And there went great multitudes with him: and he turned, and said unto them: If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple. And whosoever doth not bear his cross, and come after me, cannot be my disciple.

So much for forgive and forget.

[Gravekeeper]

Leviticus 20:13 If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them.

Sentencing someone to death isn't exactly tough love.

I'll just quote myself from another thread: "The part of Leviticus you're referring too ( Ignoring the point behind Leviticus as is ) is part of the Holiness Code. Which was added into Leviticus later by some dickish priests that apparently found sex in general squicky and weren't big fans of Caananites. Seeing as having sex with them was considered an even greater crime than homosexuality. Also, it only specifies between two men. Lesbians are fine for for the priesthood I guess."

Luke 14:25-27 And there went great multitudes with him: and he turned, and said unto them: If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple. And whosoever doth not bear his cross, and come after me, cannot be my disciple.

Wow, way to completely twist that one. Since you missed it, what Jesus is saying is that to become his disciple, you must be able to leave behind your family and your former life. Thats how big a commitment it is. If you can't leave behind your life and bear the burden, as you would need to in order to travel with him or to travel to other countries to spread his word, then you shouldn't be his disciple. -.-

[Panacea]

Which arguments that atheists are making are emotional? Where is this "childish battle of insults and mockery"? Where are the examples to back up what looks to me like an unfair stereotype?

Just look at any thread related to the subject on Ars Technica or the Chronicle for Higher Education. The Dawkinites elevate atheism practically to its own religious state, and the religious fundies respond in kind.

Quite tiresome, actually.

One thing i'd like to say regarding your first point: Personally, i feel that religion is very harmful to human society, even today being the cause of so much evil in the world, while all the good it does could easily be done by any secular organization taking it's place.

I greatly disagree. Religion has brought tremendous good to society. The ideas of social justice inherent the Christianity are the foundation for the values of fair play, forgiveness, and redemption that are central to Western thinking.

Please understand; before Christ these ideas were NOT common place! No one thought twice about imprisoning, starving, or killing the weak. Christ's message of love and hope elevated the common man, that's why it spread like wildfire across the ancient world. Christs ideas were revolutionary for their time.

During the Dark Ages, Christian monks preserved much of what little we have of ancient writings, thoughts and philosophies by painstakingly copying texts. They didn't just copy religious texts (though much of their time was spent on that).

National Geographic has an interesting article in the latest issue about the King James Bible, now in its 400th year. Many phrases in common use spring directly from it. It was the first "every man's" bible, and was often the foundation of literacy for centuries.

In spite of the problems associated with the Catholic Church, the Church actually managed to maintain law and order at a time when secular authorities were collapsing in the wake of barbarian invasions across Western and Eastern Europe. The Church preserved the vestiges of the Roman Empire, and kept stability in many places, even as they did horrible things to heretics.

The Church was the foundation of the university education. Oxford, Cambridge, the University of Paris, even Harvard, all started as religious schools.

Like most things in life, religion is a mixed bag of nuts; yin and yang. Darkness and light.

"Thou shalt not kill"

One of the ten commandments. A pretty basic damn tenent of christianiy. This is not an interpretation--it simply says "Thou Shalt Not Kill."

It actually reads, "Thou shalt not Murder." Not the same thing at all. Killing has always been OK in the name of God. No sooner did God give Moses the 10 Commandments, than He ordered Moses to kill those Israelites who had worshiped the golden calf (about 3000 people).

The reason many people still accept the commandments is...well most of them still make a certain sense in todays world, and mesh well with Jesus teachings. Most of leviticus doesnt.

Exodus and Deuteronomy have their fair share of silliness too, at least in a modern context.

Here's the thing about these particular books of the Old Testament. You HAVE to take them within the context of the times in which they were written. These rules were necessary for social order in a very disordered time. These were tribal people, ignorant of science. Those rules worked for them. They don't work for us, not as written.

The purpose of the rules was the survival of the culture. Taking them literally (and often out of context) leads to the misapplication of those rules in a time where they just don't fit.

"Many translations"? Citation needed. The original text is Thou Shalt Not Kill. Thou Shalt Not Murder is an alternative interpretation that appears to be originating from an anonymous Jewish source from the 13th century in Spain and specifically is discussing the Torah. This interpretation also says you can't build an altar out of stone nor walk up a flight of steps to a place or worship.

Seriously, no offence smiley, because I understand why you have a bias in this. But you're still being biased. -.-

I wish I could remember the name of the rabbi who frequently appears on the History Channel. He's said that the correct translation is murder not kill. The actual Hebrew word retzach means several different things, which accounts for the mistranslations. Again, it's one of those things where you have to look at the Bible in context. There are many rules in Hebrew law regarding the killing of people; capital punishment was imposed for a number of crimes.

And bias, by itself is not a bad thing as long as it is acknowledged by the author so the reader can make a fair judgement of what is said or written.

And amazingly, by never trusting Christians, I can never be hurt by them again... funny how that works.
Until Christians prove to me that I have reason to trust them, I'm not going to risk being hurt by the douchebag hatemonger Christ again.

eta- and as I've mentioned several times, I have read the bible and there is no ambiguity, God does hate me because I am gay, and there is nothing I can do to change that, short of putting myself through torture to become straight.
Why should I trust a group that worships a god who unambiguously hates me?

I'm very sorry you feel that way, smiley, though I certainly understand why you do. Rest assured, not all Christians feel the way the ones you know do.

God does not hate you at all. If you look at Leviticus in context, you'll see that God is saying he hates the sin, not the sinner.

However, taking Leviticus in the context of the times, I don't believe that particular law is relevant in the modern age any more than the prohibitions against eating shellfish or pork. The folks who quote Leviticus need to have a reality check; odds are they are breaking a lot of laws that would require the same punishment as a homosexual act.

True, a lot of Christians don't agree with me on this, though

Luke 14:25-27 And there went great multitudes with him: and he turned, and said unto them: If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple. And whosoever doth not bear his cross, and come after me, cannot be my disciple.

So much for forgive and forget.

Again, you gotta take it in context. What Jesus was really talking about was the price of faith. He was really saying that if you wanted to be his Disciple, you had to be willing to pay the price of that faith. He didn't literally mean you had to hate your parents to follow Him.

[Sleepwalker]

Religion is wrong. I'm against the lie. At this point, the argument usually become that it is a 'good' lie, like...santa claus, except santa claus is topping them from raping and stealing. At which point I tend to hold my valuables a little tighter and scan the nearby exits.

[Sleepwalker]

Please understand; before Christ these ideas were NOT common place! No one thought twice about imprisoning, starving, or killing the weak.

in my deep wisdom have I enclosed them. That the strong might not injure the weak, in order to protect the widows and orphans, I have in Babylon the city where Anu and Bel raise high their head, in E-Sagil, the Temple, whose foundations stand firm as heaven and earth, in order to bespeak justice in the land, to settle all disputes, and heal all injuries, set up these my precious words, written upon my memorial stone, before the image of me, as king of righteousness.

[Panacea]

Religion is wrong. I'm against the lie. At this point, the argument usually become that it is a 'good' lie, like...santa claus, except santa claus is topping them from raping and stealing. At which point I tend to hold my valuables a little tighter and scan the nearby exits.

There's not much I can say to that. You believe in unbelief as fervently as I hold to my faith. That's your choice, even though you are wrong. I can't prove you are wrong . . . if you close your heart to God there's not much *I* can do to open it. We'll simply have to agree to disagree.

I won't argue it's a good lie, because it's not a lie at all. But it's hard to explain a spiritual moment to someone who's never had one, or hasn't recognized it or acknowledged it. All I can say is this: I've felt God's presence and felt His love and affection for me . . . and His disappointment when I haven't done the right thing.

in my deep wisdom have I enclosed them. That the strong might not injure the weak, in order to protect the widows and orphans, I have in Babylon the city where Anu and Bel raise high their head, in E-Sagil, the Temple, whose foundations stand firm as heaven and earth, in order to bespeak justice in the land, to settle all disputes, and heal all injuries, set up these my precious words, written upon my memorial stone, before the image of me, as king of righteousness.

Hookay. Not sure where this is coming from. Is this a quote from an older faith from the Fertile Crescent?

If so, my point still stands. The ideas may have been expressed previously, but they were not commonly held until the spread of Christianity.

[Hyena Dandy]

Hookay. Not sure where this is coming from. Is this a quote from an older faith from the Fertile Crescent?

Hammurabi's code.

Yes, it does predate Christianity. And I would say it is wrong to say that the ideals of love were unheard of, or never commonly held in a nation, before Christianity. I would think it's fair to say, though, that Christian ideals WERE quite uncommon in the Roman empire, and the rest of the 'civilized' world at the time Christianity arose. The point is the same, but you exaggerated it.

But I don't think you can say 'look at Hammurabi's code' when you're talking about religion never doing anything good. It references in the very beginning, three gods (Anu, Bel, and Marduk).

[Ipecac Drano]

I'll just quote myself from another thread: "The part of Leviticus you're referring too ( Ignoring the point behind Leviticus as is ) is part of the Holiness Code. Which was added into Leviticus later by some dickish priests that apparently found sex in general squicky and weren't big fans of Caananites. Seeing as having sex with them was considered an even greater crime than homosexuality. Also, it only specifies between two men. Lesbians are fine for for the priesthood I guess."

It's still in the Bible as something God detests.

Wow, way to completely twist that one. Since you missed it, what Jesus is saying is that to become his disciple, you must be able to leave behind your family and your former life. Thats how big a commitment it is. If you can't leave behind your life and bear the burden, as you would need to in order to travel with him or to travel to other countries to spread his word, then you shouldn't be his disciple. -.-

I'm aware of the meaning. And if God or anyone else told me that was the cost of their discipleship, I'd tell them to go stuff themselves.

[Gravekeeper]

Please understand; before Christ these ideas were NOT common place! No one thought twice about imprisoning, starving, or killing the weak. Christ's message of love and hope elevated the common man, that's why it spread like wildfire across the ancient world. Christs ideas were revolutionary for their time.

Objection. Multiple objections, frankly. Eastern religions had this stuff figured out hundreds of years before Christ ( and frankly religion did not invent empathy even then ) and its even arguable that he picked up a number of ideas from them ( his followers certainly co-opted the details of his birth from them and inserted Jesus into them instead ). It also did *not* spread like wildfire, it took hundreds of years and the Roman Empire to get it around the Mediterrean. It was not love and hope that won the day either, it was the fact he advocated for the well being of anyone that would follow him regardless of status and the fact his teachings coincided with some already established Greek traditional beliefs that made it easy for people to hop the fence without feeling like heretics.

His ideas were not revolutionary and had the Roman Empire not switched over to Christianity, its doubtful it would have spread as much as it has. In fact early Christianity was pretty damn varied from region to region and most of it would be considered heretical these days.

I like the guy and all, but lets not get all starry eyed on him here. -.-

[Gravekeeper]

It's still in the Bible as something God detests.

Seriously? Well, Hallejuah! Mystery solved! Since apparently that means every priest on the planet is speaking the direct word of god. So there's no need for all these other religions and what not!

How the hell did you get from "edited in by a group of fundie priests" to "OBVIOUSLY THIS IS GODS WILL".

Man, you have more faith than most Christians do.

I'm aware of the meaning. And if God or anyone else told me that was the cost of their discipleship, I'd tell them to go stuff themselves.

If you were aware of the meaning, you would not have used the quote as such and if you are aware of it, you would not be making this statement either. As its obviously still sailing over your head.

"Dudes, look, being my disciple is harsh, we're wandering around preaching, I may even send you to preach in distant countries, this a lifetime commitment guys! So I mean its really better if you don't have any family being left behind or any attachments-"
"FUCK YOU JESUS"

?

[Ipecac Drano]

Seriously? Well, Hallejuah! Mystery solved! Since apparently that means every priest on the planet is speaking the direct word of god. So there's no need for all these other religions and what not!

How the hell did you get from "edited in by a group of fundie priests" to "OBVIOUSLY THIS IS GODS WILL".

Man, you have more faith than most Christians do.

Um, wouldn't said "fundie priests" claim that "obviously this is God's will"?

If you were aware of the meaning, you would not have used the quote as such and if you are aware of it, you would not be making this statement either. As its obviously still sailing over your head.

"Dudes, look, being my disciple is harsh, we're wandering around preaching, I may even send you to preach in distant countries, this a lifetime commitment guys! So I mean its really better if you don't have any family being left behind or any attachments-"
"FUCK YOU JESUS"

And you didn't catch that if someone told me the extremes I would have to go to in order to follow them, including abandoning my family (it was written, don't deny it), I would walk away from that person? There was nothing esoteric in what Jesus or I had said; unless, of course, you have to take an "indirect" route in the true spirit of an apologist.

[smileyeagle1021]

How the hell did you get from "edited in by a group of fundie priests" to "OBVIOUSLY THIS IS GODS WILL".

Man, you have more faith than most Christians do.

this is a case of wanting your cake and eating it too.
If God is perfect, and God inspired the bible, how can it be less than perfect.
I used to be Christian, and I know how it works, I've heard that exact line repeated over and over again, the Bible is perfect for God says it is so.

[Andara Bledin]

If God is perfect, and God inspired the bible, how can it be less than perfect.
I used to be Christian, and I know how it works, I've heard that exact line repeated over and over again, the Bible is perfect for God says it is so.

Because the people who told you what they did couldn't possibly have been mistaken.

Humans are imperfect and God allows us to be that way, because we have free will.

^-.-^

[Hyena Dandy]

I used to be Christian, and I know how it works, I've heard that exact line repeated over and over again, the Bible is perfect for God says it is so.

That's Biblical Literalism. It's a highly contested topic within the Christian community. It's accepted by a lot of Evangelical groups, but not by everyone. In fact, a lot of people will say it's, well, quite silly.