Afterlife: Why only two options?

[Rageaholic]

Purgatory makes sense from a theological standpoint. Though I've always wondered why god feels he has to punish unbelievers and those who don't follow him. If god gave humans free will, surely he knew that some would use it differently than others. Just because someone doesn't want to follow the rigid rules of religion doesn't mean that they're evil and deserve punishment. Surely a less harsh alternative (like ceasing to exist) would be better than some horrific, unnecessary, and disproportionate punishment.

Also agree with gravekeeper, I don't know why once you're dead, you're stuck in one afterlife scenerio forever. That's absolutely maddening to think about.

EDIT: And conservapedia is one scary website!

[Kheldarson]

Thanks for that. Anyone have any idea, then, which scriptures the Conservapedia people would intend on "re-translating" to describe "hell as we now think of it"?

I'm not even going to go look at their definitions. I think it would scare me, and I'm pretty orthodox Catholic. But Matthew 24-25 is all end times parables from Christ, so might be where they get some of it. Especially with verses like Mt. 25: 30: "And throw this useless servant into the darkness outside, where there will be wailing and grinding of teeth."

Revelations is also descriptive of hell, but that's supposed to be end times hell, not current hell (supposedly there's a difference. Revelations is a great lesson in metaphor overuse.)

Also agree with gravekeeper, I don't know why once you're dead, you're stuck in one afterlife scenerio forever. That's absolutely maddening to think about.

It's because once you're dead you no longer have the force of will. Supposedly. We could be wrong, but there's not a lot of unbiased sources coming back from the dead to tell us otherwise

But the theory/theology is that during life we're given free will to choose our way. And if our choices lead us away from God then if we die in such a state we can no longer choose our way back. Now, areas like Purgatory, you can move from because that's...a waiting period. Kinda. But Hell? Well, you made a big choice there and can't come back. Your momentum from life is keeping you there.

[Skunkle]

Rageaholic, the reason God is said to punish unbelievers runs like this: We're all children of God, created by God, God is the one and only God, etc. This starts with the assumption that there really IS one and only one deity and one and only one "way."

Now, ALL people - due to Adam and Eve's sin - are born into sin. The idea is that, when I'm born, even if by some miracle I never commit any sinful acts in life, I'm still a sinner from square one. Some sects really lean hard on this, and love to rail on and on about how when we're born, we utterly deserve to burn in hell for all eternity (see Westboro).

So...the punishment isn't so much levied against nonbelievers, but just STANDING - EVERYONE gets it, UNLESS they come to God. Problem is, the way this is often put by proselytizers, coupled with the standing rep of Christians to be pushy, bossy and self-important, doesn't look very attractive. "Bringing the good news" often seems to be put like this: You're a worthle4ss, depraved, filthy good-for-nothing, and right now you're going to burn in hell! But, oh, I have Good News!! If you become a Christian, you'll be saved!!

On the rare occasion that I tell someone - which is usually only when I'm asked - I emphasize the aspect of faith that I think is most important over all: love.

So it seems the Bible is vague as opposed to the black and white "heaven or damnation." I could easily be wrong, but I have the impression that some people harp on "you're going to hell" because of a smidgen of desired superiority complex. I say this because, more often than "you're going to hell UNLESS you convert," I hear just "you're going to hell." Like it feels goooood to tell someone that you think they're going to spend eternity in a pit of fire.

[siead_lietrathua]

Now, ALL people - due to Adam and Eve's sin - are born into sin.

this is the line i want to address. it's actually incorrect. in biblical timeline, god made the world, including all the animals and mankind. after that he sectioned off part of the world, and within it created adam, eve, and all that "eden" jazz.
but the bible itself refers to other people living around the garden. when Cain is kicked out of the family for killing abel he marries a woman from these other lands (i think that tribe was Nod, but im a little rusty).
the onyl epople with "original sin" in a bloodline sense of the word would be direct decendants of adam and eve, but not those of the other tribes.

i kinda like Hades myself. one big afterworld devided into various sections for various people. levels for both wholesome and douchy people.

[Rageaholic]

But the theory/theology is that during life we're given free will to choose our way. And if our choices lead us away from God then if we die in such a state we can no longer choose our way back. Now, areas like Purgatory, you can move from because that's...a waiting period. Kinda. But Hell? Well, you made a big choice there and can't come back. Your momentum from life is keeping you there.

I was always skeptical of that I mean, it's unfair of god to punish us for something we weren't sure of until it was too late. On earth, everything is confusing and god doesn't reveal himself (if he does, it's subtle). So if someone seriously didn't believe or decided they didn't want to invest in a religion that there wasn't substancial proof of, they're unfairly SOL. Because of this, it's not a very simple choice.

[Skunkle]

What I'd say is that it takes effort to cut away all the BS and find the loving, caring side that would make someone want to go to God. And it isn't easy with all the raw crap that gets thrown about with this sect against that sect, which interpretation is correct, etc. I don't think there IS one "right" interpretation of the Bible, nor do I consider it to be all or even mostly literal descriptions. It's a big collection of some prophetic writings, some laws of the time, some stories intended to teach life lessons and morality, and a bunch of other stuff, assembled into a book.

Interestingly, re: Adam and Eve... A local shop has a printed "timeline of history" banner that's about fifteen feet long. It starts with Creation, then Adam and Eve, and traces the bloodlines of all Biblical figures from there. At one point, all of the Biblical bloodlines/family lines just STOP and it begins with various ancient civilizations (Romans, Greeks, that sort of thing) and starts from there, tracking civilizations and inventions as opposed to people and bloodlines. It's as if they went-- "...and after somewhere around here, we have no idea how things went." In that chart, ALL people spring from Adam & Eve. I gotta take some photos of that.

[Kheldarson]

Well, we know there's a legitimate Eve figure at some point in our timeline, but prolly not the Biblical Adam and Eve as we know it.

And Rageaholic, it is a bit of a problem, and Pascal's Wager pretty much covers the standard answer to it. But I have to admit it's kind of trite (although the work it's in is a fairly interesting read). Personally, on the topic itself, I think that the main issue is what happened during the Middle Ages honestly. That's where a lot of our "modern" ideas about heaven, hell, and angels come from. And while I'll argue that that time period is the Church's Golden Age, there was a heavy focus on the afterlife that really doesn't weigh in at this point in the Church. Other denominations though...

[siead_lietrathua]

Interestingly, re: Adam and Eve... A local shop has a printed "timeline of history" banner that's about fifteen feet long.

Genisis4:16 So Cain went out from the LORD’s presence and lived in the land of Nod,[f] east of Eden. 17 Cain made love to his wife, and she became pregnant and gave birth to Enoch. Cain was then building a city, and he named it after his son Enoch.

if all are decended of adam and eve, and cain was banished from their lands, who would his wife and her tribe be. this is before the birth of adam's son seth and his heirs.

but thats all kind of a tangent sorry.

what about the idea of afterlife being reincarnation? that leaves almost endless possibilities, and alleviates the "boredum" of doing the same thing over and over.

[Skunkle]

Vampires, siead. Vampires.

I'm kidding, but that's the origin story in White Wolf's "Vampire: the Masquerade." Cain killed Abel, was damned by God, and became the first vampire. Enoch was a city made of the childer (younger vampires) he created.

I'll have to ask around for some opinions on the story of Cain and Enoch as it pertains to Biblical history.

[Kheldarson]

*snerk* Vampires indeed!

But on reincarnation, I asked that of a priest once. He hemmed, hawed, then shrugged and said it was for better heads

[ExRetailDrone]

I could easily be wrong, but I have the impression that some people harp on "you're going to hell" because of a smidgen of desired superiority complex. I say this because, more often than "you're going to hell UNLESS you convert," I hear just "you're going to hell." Like it feels goooood to tell someone that you think they're going to spend eternity in a pit of fire.

I could see that completely. I have to say that I've been lucky in that I haven't been bombarded by these crazy religious nuts very often in my life. Funnily enough, the worst that I remember happened in Seoul of all places. My husband and I were there with some friends and were heading back to the train station. People tend to like to hover around outside the station to proselytize to passers-by, and we happened to pass one guy doing just that. He wanted us to stop and listen to whatever BS he wanted to throw at us, and we continued walking without a second thought. Because we refused to listen, he immediately starting ranting that we were going to hell and blah, blah, blah. I was feeling really sick at the time, but had I been feeling better, I might have turned around and told him "Great, I'll see you there!". People like that piss me off so much

[Andara Bledin]

I've been told I'm going to hell by two different people merely for refusing to engage them. The first one was the most foul-mouthed person I've ever had the displeasure of having answered the phone to (and I'm so glad my workplace allows us to hang up on whoever we feel like if they act like assholes), and the other tried to accost me while I was waiting for a ride home from community college.

They don't even know what I believe, but they're sure I'm going to hell merely for having the audacity to refuse to let them preach at me.

^-.-^

[ExRetailDrone]

They don't even know what I believe, but they're sure I'm going to hell merely for having the audacity to refuse to let them preach at me.

^-.-^

Yeah, exactly. When my friends and I were told we were going to hell, one of the friends I was with is Christian and is a wonderful person. Yet, because we wouldn't let some proselytizing asshole waste our time, we're all going to hell, without knowing anything else about any of us. Sure

[siead_lietrathua]

ohh street preachers. i jsut tell them "matt 7:15" and keep walking. (Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves. )

[jackfaire]

ohh street preachers. i jsut tell them "matt 7:15" and keep walking. (Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves. )

My problem with street preachers is when they are describing the tortures of hell in graphic detail in a public place with children present.


The guy almost got decked.