My Problem With Christianity

[Ree]

I just get involved mostly because there seems to be some misunderstanding on the atheist side involving what Christians believe. We don't all believe the same things so why do they assign us all the same beliefs? I just get involved to provide extra definition.

I totally get that, but from what I'm seeing, nothing is going to change their minds.

There are people posting on the board who have known me for many years now.
I am a Christian - Roman Catholic, actually.

I have read so many hateful comments from these people on here and on their Facebook pages directed at the Catholic Church, and Christianity as a whole, tarring all of us with the same brush.

I had truly hoped by my actions over the years and by my words of reassurance that I do not hate them nor wish them dead, that they would realize just how wrong they are and how flawed their thinking is to make the claims they do, but as I said it's just no-win.

If you think you're going to change their minds, then more power to you, I guess, but I can't see that happening.

[Kheldarson]

@ Gravekeeper: No, it's not, but nor should it be ignored. My issue is that we have a backlash hitting that seems to be punishing majority groups simply for being a majority. That's not right either.

It's things like the discussion about the displays in Santa Monica, or the fact we even debate Happy Holidays vs. Merry Christmas. I've got no problem with separation of church and state, I've got no issue with a state defining what it believes to be proper rulings. I do take issue with federal government stepping in to tell me what the nation should be doing when it's the state's job, and I do take issue when I'm told that my rights are being overridden because a minority group takes umbrage to it.

[Kheldarson]

If you think you're going to change their minds, then more power to you, I guess, but I can't see that happening.

Also Roman Catholic, and I actually don't think I'll change minds. I kinda like the debate overall. Tells me what to go look at when I'm grabbing new theology books.

[smileyeagle1021]

And frankly, all of your examples are things that should be determined by the state. Which is why the phrase "vote with your feet" comes up.

So, discrimination is okay as long as someone has the ability to move?
I think Dr. King Jr. would like a few words with you on that one, I believe his exact words were along the lines of "discrimination anywhere is discrimination everywhere".

And Ree, believe it or not, but a lot of us want to have our minds changed. I would like nothing more than to one day be able to say, hey Christians aren't the hateful bigots I've made them out to be, I'd love to live in a world where I didn't wake up every day knowing I'm surrounded by people that hate me. Then I turn on the news, or read a newspaper, or walk out the front door, and nope, my previous assumptions are all proved right, Christians fighting against my rights as a citizen, Christians spreading lies about me based on my orientation, Christians being mean spirited and bigoted, and all of it backed up by their God and His book. You have no idea how much I'd like to wake up some day and that not be the case, sadly, that hasn't happened yet, and each day that goes by I find it even less likely to happen.

[Gravekeeper]

I do take issue with federal government stepping in to tell me what the nation should be doing when it's the state's job, and I do take issue when I'm told that my rights are being overridden because a minority group takes umbrage to it.

To quote you:

And frankly, all of your examples are things that should be determined by the state. Which is why the phrase "vote with your feet" comes up.

To quote smiley's examples:

(blue laws, the attempts to outlaw homosexuality, attempting to force prayer in schools, etc)

If those are the examples you are referring too, no, those should not be up to the state. Those should not even be up for consideration by the majority.

[Andara Bledin]

I had truly hoped by my actions over the years and by my words of reassurance that I do not hate them nor wish them dead, that they would realize just how wrong they are and how flawed their thinking is to make the claims they do, but as I said it's just no-win.

You would think that after years of them seeing you be a good person, they'd view you first as a good person instead of just another theist out to oppress them.

I would like nothing more than to one day be able to say, hey Christians aren't the hateful bigots I've made them out to be, I'd love to live in a world where I didn't wake up every day knowing I'm surrounded by people that hate me.

You're surrounded by hateful bigots who happen to be Christian, not hateful bigots because they are Christian.

The sooner you and others figure out that being theistic, religious, or atheistic is not the root cause of someone's being an asshole, the sooner the decent among us can get to figuring out the real reasons and actually stamping them out.

^-.-^

[Sleepwalker]

I have read so many hateful comments from these people on here and on their Facebook pages directed at the Catholic Church, and Christianity as a whole, tarring all of us with the same brush.

You support a church, the catholic church at that which has a very clear hierarchy, and then complain when people judge you based on your organization? /facepalm

Perhaps someday you will see some moral connection between your actions as an individual member of a group and the actions of said group. I'm not holding ym breath, either.

[Ree]

You support a church, the catholic church at that which has a very clear hierarchy, and then complain when people judge you based on your organization?

Yes I do.
I am about more than just my religion.

It's only a small part of who I am, and regardless of what you or others feel about my church, I do feel it has helped shape me into a caring, charitable person, capable of forgiving others, as I have been taught that God will forgive me for my transgressions.

I have friends who are pagan and I have friends who are atheist.
I do not judge them for what they believe, so I find it very offensive when I am judged for what I believe.

You can bash my Church all you want, and it will not change my mind.

You are entitled to your opinion, of course, but that doesn't change the fact that it hurts me when I am lumped in as a narrow-minded, hateful bigot just because some people who also belong to the same religion have shown themselves to be that way.

[Peppergirl]

You are entitled to your opinion, of course, but that doesn't change the fact that it hurts me when I am lumped in as a narrow-minded, hateful bigot just because some people who also belong to the same religion have shown themselves to be that way.

I feel similarly, except that it makes me very angry rather than hurt. I am so sick of being lumped in with these idiots simply because I believe in God and call myself a Christian.

You'd think I'd be used to it by now, because it's the same old shit over and over. I am tired of defending my faith to the same people who can't get it through their heads that being a Christian does not make me a hate-mongering jackass.

Like Ree said, being a Christian does not define who I am or what I believe in. Case in point: I am pro-choice. I guess because most Christian churches are against abortion, I should stop believing in God, right?

Or how about this one? I support gay marriage. Oh, but no. Many so-called Christians are against gay marriage and are disgusting, vile and vocal in their opinions toward it. I guess I have to stop believing in God because of them too, right? I mean, I can't *possibly* believe in God and support gay marriage or a womans right to choose.

[Peppergirl]

You're surrounded by hateful bigots who happen to be Christian, not hateful bigots because they are Christian.

This sums it up perfectly. Thank you.

[smileyeagle1021]

You're surrounded by hateful bigots who happen to be Christian, not hateful bigots because they are Christian.

The sooner you and others figure out that being theistic, religious, or atheistic is not the root cause of someone's being an asshole, the sooner the decent among us can get to figuring out the real reasons and actually stamping them out.

^-.-^

I've known several people who prior to becoming active in churches , and they go from being open minded and supportive of equality, to refusing to even acknowledge my existence because they can't bring themselves to admit that they know any vile homosexuals... only change, they went from being non religious to being a regular church attender.
The sad reality is that there are some people who are bigots because they are Christian, not just bigots who happen to be Christian.

I am about more than just my religion.

I understand how you feel, believe me I do.
If every person realized that sentence applied also to orientation, then this debate likely would have been settled in our favor a long time ago.

[Ree]

I understand how you feel, believe me I do.
If every person realized that sentence applied also to orientation, then this debate likely would have been settled in our favor a long time ago.

Well, perhaps if people didn't make their orientation the focus in areas where it's not relevant.
When I introduce myself, I don't say, "Hi, My name is Ree and I'm heterosexual," yet many times, that is exactly what I hear from a gay person. "Hi there. I'm gay." WTF? I don't fucking care.

Personally, I couldn't give a damn what sex a person chooses to sleep with, and find it totally irrelevant, so it's not as if I judge anyone based on their orientation.
The thing is, you can have a whole room full of people, or a message board full of people, and most of the time, one knows who in the group is homosexual because they will almost always draw attention to that fact. Then, if they meet with any type of resistance, they will claim, "It's because I'm gay," and shout discrimination, and then claim that they are about more than their sexual orientation.

The fact of the matter is, I either do not like the idea put forward, or my personality doesn't mesh with that person. Their sexual orientation and my Christianity (or Catholicism) has nothing to do with my not accepting their idea. I also do not go around announcing, "I'm Ree and I'm Christian."

I know that there are many out there who do discriminate, and I know that there is an irrational hatred for homosexuality. I also know that many Christian religions are of the belief that homosexuality is a sin and an abomination, and there is hypocrisy when they spread hatred against gay people. According to the doctrines of most Christian churches, homosexuality is considered a sin. The church also says that sin is supposed to be met with the attitude of "hate the sin but love the sinner" and yet, many forget that fact, and they, themselves, enter into a state of sin in their actions of outrage and violence against gay people.

However, I am not one of those people, and, as I said, I resent the hell out of being generalized into that category.

[blas87]

I am with Ree and Pepper, and thank you Andara for your kind words. It's wonderful to see at least a few can see the difference between believer in God and "bigot".

I have pretty much given up on defending myself on these threads. They are all the same Christian bashing, calling us all bigots. Like Pepper, I am pro-choice and pro-gay rights. I guess I better quit believing in God then, right?

[Rageaholic]

Maybe these defensive posts weren't directed at me, but where did I criticize all Christians? I criticized aspects of what they believe, but I never said all Christians are nasty bigots. I didn't even criticize all Christian beliefs, just the idea that if we don't follow god in this life, we'll pay in the afterlife. I even posted a disclaimer that it was mostly directed at the more Conservative Christians.

I don't think any of the Christians on here fall under the fundamentalist bigot category. Most of you are pretty open minded and realize it's all based on faith (as opposed to those who assume it's the truth and provide no reasons). I just think that certain beliefs need to be questioned if they don't add up.

[Kheldarson]

I just think that certain beliefs need to be questioned if they don't add up.

Which beliefs? Problem is that what you might think is irrational, might still have a basis which is logical from a different view. Like abortion tends to be a big one.

Caveat: Not wanting to debate abortion. Just showing a logic thread.

So premise one is that God exists and created life. Therefore life is sacred. Premise Two is that life begins and ends with a soul. Premise three is that a soul is present at conception. So logically, to do anything to prevent that soul/life from developing as God wills is murder and wrong.

Now, the standard argument against it as at premise three. Is a soul present? If yes, then murder. If no, then not. Can't prove it either way really, so you say a pro-lifer needs to question their belief, but to their position, they're justified.

And that tends to be a major problem between non-theists and theists. The theist position starts with God, and the non-theists doesn't. So a justification of a belief from either side on a religious topic doesn't sound quite right to the other.