My Problem With Christianity

[guywithashovel]

Something I think some people should remember is that "Christian" is more than just a label. In order to accurately call yourself a Christian, there are certain beliefs you need to accept, and if you don't accept those beliefs, it probably isn't going to make much sense to call yourself a Christian.

If you are identifying with a religion, it is fair to assume that you believe in the tenents of that religion. You may say that you are a Christian despite the fact that you support gay rights, think premarital sex is okay, are okay with other religions, etc., but you are going against your religion on all of those things. And while we're at it, it's probably a stretch to support abortion rights and while labeling yourself a Christian, too. Yes, I know there is no Bible verse that flat out says "Thou shalt not have an abortion," but I there is a verse somewhere that says or implies that life begins at conception. I've seen it quoted before.

Bottom line, if Christianity doesn't define what you believe, or if you have to constantly say "I'm a Christian, but I don't believe "this," "this," "that," or whatever," then "Christian" may not be the right label for you.

[Andara Bledin]

Why do people so adamantly cling to the "No True Scotsman" fallacy when it's shown that their prejudices are examples of bigotry?

^-.-^

[Sleepwalker]

Ahhh, here we are. You do not support the tenets of the organization, yet are a member.

This reminds me of the liberal republicans. They support marriage equality, secularism, peace and social justice... yet vote republican because of gun laws or somesuch.

Yes, I will judge them based on what their affiliated group does. You give money, time, labor, even allowing your name on their membership roster is a vote, and what they do with what you give them comes down to you. If you believe a certain way, have your actions back you up.

Right now, your actions are supporting a corrupt and oppressive organization, and your words are to whine about how it isn't really support since you think what they are doing is wrong.

They are still doing it, and youa re still supporting them.

[Andara Bledin]

What organization, pray tell, am I supporting?

This would be fascinating news to me.

^-.-^

[Peppergirl]

Bottom line, if Christianity doesn't define what you believe, or if you have to constantly say "I'm a Christian, but I don't believe "this," "this," "that," or whatever," then "Christian" may not be the right label for you.

I wholeheartedly disagree.

Are you saying I am not allowed to identify as a Christian if I don't believe/follow some of the things they believe in?

What about birth control? The catholic church is 'against' that, yet nearly every Catholic I know has used birth control in one form or another. Are they no longer Catholics? Hell, my own MOTHER practiced birth control and supports gay rights. Is she not a Catholic now? I'm sure she'd be interested to know this as she traipes off to church every week and volunteers at church functions, etc.

[guywithashovel]

Why do people so adamantly cling to the "No True Scotsman" fallacy when it's shown that their prejudices are examples of bigotry?

^-.-^

I have no prejudices or bigotry against anyone, so I'm not sure where that ad hominem came from. I just don't think it makes sense to align yourself with an ideological group if you don't agree with a good portion of their ideology.

My statements don't constitute a "No True Scotsman" fallacy, either. As I've tried to illustrate, Christianity is not an ethnic group or some group that people arbitrarily get tossed into. It's a religion that people choose to belong to because they agree with the beliefs and philosophy that it contains. If someone is claiming to be a Christian, yet expressing disagreement with a hefty portion of those beliefs and philosophies, then it's reasonable to question why they're even bothering to associate with the religion in the first place.

Let's consider it from another angle. Assume I was calling myself a Conservative Republican even though I was pro-choice, supported same-sex marriage, thought universal healthcare was a good idea, and thought strict gun control laws should be implemented. Surely any reasonable person would question why I was labeling myself a Conservative Republican in the first place.

To put a spin on the name of the aforementioned fallacy, sometimes it DOES make sense to say "No true Scotsman would do this."

[Andara Bledin]

Another thing to note that is very sloppy of the "anti-theist" crowd:

Religion and Church are not interchangeable.

Plus, when you're speaking of Christians, which sect are you referring to? At last glance, there were tens of thousands of differing interpretations of the Bible.

You'd have to have an incredible amount of time spent studying each one, plus an amazing amount of time devoted to researching the Bible to find the most accurate translations and then determine what the authors were trying to communicate when they wrote their bits.

Sufficed to say that anyone who claims to know what it takes to be a "real Christian" is pretty much displaying a high level of hubris and ignorance.

[edit to add]
Comparing being Christian to being Republican looks great on the surface, but fails as soon as you really take a look at it. I don't have time to deconstruct it at this time, but will delve into it further later, when I have more time.

^-.-^

[Kheldarson]

Christian = belief in Christ as your Savior. That's it. That's the whole definition.

Beyond that, it's mostly fair game.

[Rageaholic]

I can understand guywithashovel's point. Whenever you attack an aspect of Christianity, you'll always get those who say they don't believe in that. That's good and all, but why act defensive? Even if someone made a broad generalization, claiming that they dislikes Christians because they oppose such and such, it's obvious they aren't talking about all Christians. Sometimes generalizations are justified, particularly with topics such as religion and politics.

With that said, I disagree with the "no true scottsman" fallacy in this case. Christianity is split into many denominations and groups so their beliefs vary. Some view god as wrathful and vengeful while others see him more mercifully and accepting. Two totally different views on god in the same faith so I disagree with the idea that Christians should act a certain way. In fact, that same arguement has been used by fundamentalists to distance themselves from the "luke warm" Christians.

[Peppergirl]

Even if someone made a broad generalization, claiming that they dislikes Christians because they oppose such and such, it's obvious they aren't talking about all Christians. .

Um, no.

If you do a bit of research, it's actually been said on this very board that if you're a Christian, you're automatically a bigot and a homophobe and that the only way to truly support the oppressed is to renounce our faith.

A member stated upthread that he will judge anyone who claims to be a Christian yet are against some of the things that Christians are for. Or a republican who doesn't believe in every single that the republican party stands for.

There are no shades of grey to some people, so no - unfortunately you're not correct. Sure, most people (even when making a sweeping generalization) realize that you can be a Christian and not a crazy bigot. But there are very clear cut cases on this board where people think otherwise and have clearly stated so.

[KabeRinnaul]

Yes, I know there is no Bible verse that flat out says "Thou shalt not have an abortion," but I there is a verse somewhere that says or implies that life begins at conception. I've seen it quoted before.

There really isn't much. The primary religious arguments for pro-life are (a) "Thou shalt not kill." and (b) if there is a soul, it must join with the body at some point (Kheldarson summed this one up on page 3). However, the latter point is primarily a matter of tradition and philosophy.

I have no prejudices or bigotry against anyone, so I'm not sure where that ad hominem came from.

And this is the only thing I can think of now.

Plus, when you're speaking of Christians, which sect are you referring to? At last glance, there were tens of thousands of differing interpretations of the Bible.

Except now I'm thinking of this.

There's Catholic, Orthodox, Calvins and Lutherans, and two dozen sub-churches each;
Episcopalian, Presbyterian, Congregation, Miaphysite, and the Church of the East;
Amish or Mennonite, Hutterite and Millerite, then Free Evangelical;
Methodist and Baptist, Brethren and Pietist, Apostolic and Pentecostal.

There's Charismatic, Quaker, Adventist, and Church of Christ.
Davidian, Mormon, Witnesses, and Christian Scientist.
Unitarian, Universalist, Oneness, and Gay Apostolic.
Revival, Fellowship, Grace, and Jewish Messianic.

[smileyeagle1021]

When I introduce myself, I don't say, "Hi, My name is Ree and I'm heterosexual," yet many times, that is exactly what I hear from a gay person. "Hi there. I'm gay." WTF? I don't fucking care.

Of course you wouldn't say "I'm Ree and I'm heterosexual", because until someone says otherwise, it is assumed that a person is heterosexual. And how exactly, when relationships are one of the biggest areas of discussions it is very hard NOT to have to clarify that point.
You would never have someone say "so, how is your wife doing" and have to correct them "oh, no, I'm heterosexual, I have a husband". And for a lot of gay people, the sooner that is clarified, the less awkward it is when it finally comes up. Is it fair? Absolutely not, but that's the reality of the world we live in.

Eta1- it's not that much different than for you as a Christian moving to a primarily Muslim country, religion is a big topic of discussion, and you know it is only a matter of time before someone asks why you are not joining in the prayers facing Mecca, so it gets easier to just clear that up at the first opportunity rather than keep track of who knows and understands and who doesn't yet.

Eta1.5- when you live somewhere where the majority are hostile to your orientation (or beliefs in the case of you moving to certain arabic countries), it makes life easier to just say it up front and guage people's reactions, rather than getting hurt later on when they do find out and potentially turn on you after you think they are your friend. Personally, I'd rather alienate and never speak to again 10 people today rather than have one person turn on me in a month, it is much safer,, both emotionally and potentaiily physically depending on how angry they are at feeling you've lied to them because you didn't tell them you were gay up front. Yes, if we don't tell some people up front, they think we've lied to them.
try walking in the shoes of an invisible minority for a while before criticizing us for how we handle it.

[guywithashovel]

I wholeheartedly disagree.

Are you saying I am not allowed to identify as a Christian if I don't believe/follow some of the things they believe in?

What about birth control? The catholic church is 'against' that, yet nearly every Catholic I know has used birth control in one form or another. Are they no longer Catholics? Hell, my own MOTHER practiced birth control and supports gay rights. Is she not a Catholic now? I'm sure she'd be interested to know this as she traipes off to church every week and volunteers at church functions, etc.

You and your mom can call yourselves whatever you want. I was just pointing out that by doing certain things, you really are going against the religion. I realize that there are Catholics who use birth control (most of them, actually), but it doesn't change the fact that they are going against their religion.

Likewise, a person can still call himself a Christian if he supports gay rights, but he's still going against his religion by doing that. The Bible, the accepted Holy Book for Christianity, is against it. Now, I realize that there are some sects that have used some mental gymnastics and clever wordplay to get around that, but it doesn't change the fact that there are verses in there that condemn homosexuality.

[Peppergirl]

Okay then, I am a Christian/Catholic who disagrees with and goes against certain parts of my religion that I do not agree with.

I can live with that. As can probably the 98 percent of catholics who practice birth control. It's naive to think that everyone that identifies themselves as a certain sect of Christianity is going to agree with and practice every single aspect and policy that the religion ascribes itself to.

[ExRetailDrone]

Bottom line, if Christianity doesn't define what you believe, or if you have to constantly say "I'm a Christian, but I don't believe "this," "this," "that," or whatever," then "Christian" may not be the right label for you.

I usually don't get involved in religion debates on here, but...meh, why not?

I cannot understand this line of thinking, personally. All that someone identifying as Christian says to me is that they believe and follow the teaching of Jesus Christ. That's it! Sure, there are some nutcases out there who use the label to promote their own bigotry and asshattedness, but I don't think that all Christians are like that.

I have some wonderful friends who identify as Christian. One of them in particular--she hates church, she thinks organized religion is a joke, she thinks the Bible is nothing more than mythology for the most part, she is pro-choice and pro-women's-rights and pro-gay-marriage (and she also comes from a country that is more oppressive in many ways than the U.S. is about some of those things), yet she identifies as Christian. Why? Because she believes in Jesus, and at the heart of it, that's really all it comes down to.

The Christian organization is against those things, but the heads of that organization are made up of men with their own intolerance and bigotries that have nothing to do with their religion (as much as they may try to claim they do). So why should someone listen to them as the be-all-end-all of how they personally believe? Some people follow along without putting in any thought of their own, and those people I have no respect for. But, all of the Christians I have read posts from on this board seem very down-to-earth and have really thought about what they believe, and their beliefs work for them. There is nothing wrong with that! They are not hurting anyone with how they believe, because they are not pushing any religious agenda through political means or trying to change everyone based on what they believe. In fact, most (if not all) of them believe solidly in the separation of church and state. It is beyond unfair to lump them into the Rick Perry and Newt Gingrich camp because of a label they identify with.

Now, I am not Christian. I am also not an atheist, because I believe there is more out there, I just don't know what. But the idea of a deity doesn't mesh with me. Can I completely understand the mindset of a Christian? No, I can't. But that doesn't mean I can't respect it, as long as they are not forcing their beliefs on anyone else.

The way I see it, a lot of Christians on this board seem more along the spiritual side of it rather than the religious side, and there is a huge difference in my eyes. Religion has become this organized monstrosity that is more like a corporation than anything else. The leaders try to say what the members of their faith can and cannot believe, and personally I find that disgusting. So, because of religious corruption and power mongering, everyone who identifies as that label is automatically assigned certain characteristics because of a few dickheads at the top. However, spirituality is a very personal thing where people find things that work for them and discard others that don't. Being a Christian and being religious do not necessarily go hand-in-hand in my opinion. My friend is not religious, but she is Christian and very spiritual. She communes with God and Jesus in her own way, which to me makes her a Christian, but she doesn't need anyone else for her to have that connection.

I guess what it comes down to with all of this rambling is...

Spiritual Christians and religious Christians are not the same thing. Some religious Christians are giving spiritual Christians a bad rap. You don't have to believe in the Bible or go to church to be a 'true Christian', you just need to believe and follow Jesus' teachings. Anything else you might believe in (pro-choice, pro-gay-marriage, etc) has no bearing on what your spirituality is unless you choose to make it relate, and vice versa.

So, are people hypocrites because they call themselves Christian when they don't believe in the Bible or don't follow the organized church's opinions on things? Hell no! The real hypocrites are those who call themselves Christian yet have no idea how to treat their fellow man in a decent, human way. Instead, they choose to let some bigoted idiots tell them what to think, or give in to their own bigotries and hide behind a label that is too good for them.