My Problem With Christianity

[Gravekeeper]

Likewise, a person can still call himself a Christian if he supports gay rights, but he's still going against his religion by doing that. The Bible, the accepted Holy Book for Christianity, is against it. Now, I realize that there are some sects that have used some mental gymnastics and clever wordplay to get around that, but it doesn't change the fact that there are verses in there that condemn homosexuality.

Objection. There is no undisputed blanket condemnation of homosexuality in the Bible. Only wishful interpretations and translations of a handful of passages ( Seriously, there's like 4 total in the entire book that can possibly be interpreted as having anything to do with homosexuality. None of said passages are God talking either. ). Supporting gay rights is not going against Christianity. Only against assholes.

If The Gay(tm) was such a problem it'd be up front somewhere and it requires some hella mental gymnastics to try and bring up homosexuality whilst avoiding all the rape, incest, orgies, etc elsewhere in the Bible that were apparently totally okay by God. -.-

[blas87]

I still stand a little insulted here. Apparently, I'm all wrong. I can't be religious, and I also can't be conservative if I even hold one or two liberal beliefs?

I'm going to have to tell my mother, who has been to ministry school and is able to substitute as a pastor and marry people and baptize, that she's "wrong" because she also believes in gay rights and is also pro choice.

Although I'm of Protestant religion, not Catholic, but I still don't like the blanket judgements a few members here make.

It's almost not worth sitting around listening and trying to help the cries and troubles of people, if I'm not "supposed" to want to believe in you and help you because I believe in God.

[Sleepwalker]

Your mom can believe in what she likes, if she is giving her money and labor to the catholic church, it is going towards bigotry. If someone votes republican while personally being for gay rights, they are supporting bigotry. I don't give religious affiliations a pass on this just because they are religions, people are still 'voting' by belonging to a particular church.

[Andara Bledin]

What about those of use who don't belong to churches at all?

How are we "voting?"

^-.-^

[bunnyboy]

Objection. There is no undisputed blanket condemnation of homosexuality in the Bible. Only wishful interpretations and translations of a handful of passages ( Seriously, there's like 4 total in the entire book that can possibly be interpreted as having anything to do with homosexuality. None of said passages are God talking either. ). Supporting gay rights is not going against Christianity. Only against assholes.

even then there's quite a bit of debate. The sin of Sodom and Gomorrah was not homosexuality (there's a verse in Ezekiel about it, to reiterate the point that Abraham and his brother couldn't find ten righteous (read decent human beings) in a month.) The proscriptions about it in Leviticus are possibly a blanket condemnation of something very popular in Levantine Semitic religions known as temple prostitution. To explain that you had sex with a member of the priesthood (most were fertility deities) in order to commune with the god for good farming. The area that the Hebrews were entering had Baal, a male fertility deity. So it's a reiteration of no other gods.

And Paul's whole "screed" from what we've found from older sources than the usual codex was against being so rich that you start going down a hedonistic lifestyle.

And to put to bed the whole, don't believe X = not a Christian bit.

If you want to get technical, according to a literal interpretation, ANY sex is unrighteous, and you shouldn't do it.

Therefore nobody but asexual virgin Christians are Christian, according to this line of thinking.

[Gravekeeper]

What is the criteria for being Christian? This has been going back and forth with everyone having their own cherry picked idea of what being Christian means. So what, exactly, is the universal qualifier for being a Christian? I'm honestly curious now.

Its not following Christ's teachings. Because frankly, not many Christians actually follow Christ's teachings and most of the bullshit that comes from the religious right is because God apparently said so. Not Jesus.

even then there's quite a bit of debate. The sin of Sodom and Gomorrah was not homosexuality (there's a verse in Ezekiel about it, to reiterate the point that Abraham and his brother couldn't find ten righteous (read decent human beings) in a month.)

Technically, the actual sin of Sodom and Gomorrah was simply being under the flight path of an asteroid. >.>

[Andara Bledin]

Technically, the most basic criteria for being Christian is a belief that Christ's death had more meaning than just another guy sentenced to death by crucifixion, and a belief in one god above all others.

After that, there are a couple dozen or more different things that various denominations claim, some of which are directly contradictory.

^-.-^

[Mytical]

Posted same time as the above, which explains it a bit better.

Well..depends on which sect of christian you want to know about. Some you have to be 'baptized'..others you just have to have gone to the alter to pray for your sins, others you just have to believe you are saved..then there are some that praying can count....

In other words..there are as many ways to become christian as there are interpretations of the bible..meaning A LOT. A lot of people also just give lip service. Say they are..just because it is 'fashionable'. Then there are those who try to live as best they can..even taking some of the commandments to heart, but are not christian.

Personally my favorite is the Golden Rule....do unto others as you would have them do unto you.

[Gravekeeper]

Technically, the most basic criteria for being Christian is a belief that Christ's death had more meaning than just another guy sentenced to death by crucifixion, and a belief in one god above all others.

So, one thing that was only ascribed special meaning after Jesus's death to make it more marketable. Which he himself would have disagreed with frankly. Plus has no special historical significance at all as his crucifiction was for essentially being a shit disturber in Rome. Also important to note that Judaism rejects Jesus as being a messiah at all and Islam denies he was even crucified. Oh, and there are sects of Christianity that reject it too. So no, thats not universal either.

Then the other thing that is really little more than "My god is better than your god" and is thus littered with a multitude of philosophical problems in the modern world which I believe I covered in the other thread at length. >.>

Anything else? -.-

In other words..there are as many ways to become christian as there are interpretations of the bible..meaning A LOT.

That was precisely my point though. Everyone has their own idea of what being Christian is suppose to be and none of them really agree. Which begs the question why does every group still consider itself Christian.

[Duelist925]

That was precisely my point though. Everyone has their own idea of what being Christian is suppose to be and none of them really agree. Which begs the question why does every group still consider itself Christian.

I think for much the same reason semi sweet chocolate, bakers chocolate, unsweetened chocolate, Dark chocolate,milk chocolate, the various percentages, and even white chocolate can all just be called "chocolate". Different flavors of the same base source, even though the end result can be wildly different depending on the ingredients introduced, and, well, marketing. Start with cocoan beans, end up with a fuckton varieties of chocolate.

[KabeRinnaul]

Objection. There is no undisputed blanket condemnation of homosexuality in the Bible.

You are correct, and in fact only six passages say anything about it at all, and all six are debatable. Just wanted to throw in some further reading on the topic.

What is the criteria for being Christian? This has been going back and forth with everyone having their own cherry picked idea of what being Christian means. So what, exactly, is the universal qualifier for being a Christian? I'm honestly curious now.

According to Mark and Luke, it's being a miracle worker.

That was precisely my point though. Everyone has their own idea of what being Christian is suppose to be and none of them really agree. Which begs the question why does every group still consider itself Christian.

Obviously because they think they're the ones who have it right and that everyone else is doing it wrong. Denominational differences seem to produce more or less the same clashes as religious differences. That being said, there are plenty of vague and contradictory points to argue about.

[Andara Bledin]

Also important to note that Judaism rejects Jesus as being a messiah at all and Islam denies he was even crucified. Oh, and there are sects of Christianity that reject it too. So no, thats not universal either.

There is some consensus that the act of attempting to follow his teachings is all that is necessary, with the whole crucifixion and rebirth being optional.

That was precisely my point though. Everyone has their own idea of what being Christian is suppose to be and none of them really agree. Which begs the question why does every group still consider itself Christian.

You could say that about pretty much everything that has more than a few hundred followers and isn't about strict control.

There are different schools of Buddhism. Is only one of those "real" Buddhism and should all the rest step down or conform?

^-.-^

[Gravekeeper]

There is some consensus that the act of attempting to follow his teachings is all that is necessary, with the whole crucifixion and rebirth being optional.

Yet many universally fail at even that. But still call themselves Christian.

You could say that about pretty much everything that has more than a few hundred followers and isn't about strict control.

If there was concensus as to what that everything was sure. But there is not in Christianity.

There are different schools of Buddhism. Is only one of those "real" Buddhism and should all the rest step down or conform?

That analogy doesn't work. The different schools of Buddhism are not in conflict. They also all follow Buddha's teachings. They do not argue about the translations or interpretations of said teachings. The different schools simply focus on different
areas of Buddha's teachings.

If every sect of Christianity followed Jesus's teachings without conflict that analogy would work. But they do not. -.-

Start with cocoan beans, end up with a fuckton varieties of chocolate.

I'd say its more like start with beans, but everyone is convinced they're different kinds of beans. Some think they're cocoa beans, some think they're red beans, some think they're coffee beans and thus everyone is convinced they know what recipes are appropriate for said beans. While they look at each other going "WTF, you can't make chocolate with coffee beans!" and arguing over what's the right way to prepare the beans.

The beans, meanwhile, are content to never reveal what sort of beans they are.

Obviously because they think they're the ones who have it right and that everyone else is doing it wrong. Denominational differences seem to produce more or less the same clashes as religious differences.

Ding ding ding, we have a winner. This is core problem. When you look at Christianity as a whole, it is essentially a competition both between itself and other religions. With every team involved convinced they're the ones that have figured out the Caramilk secret and everyone else is wrong. Essentially, they all claim the title of Christian and are in an elaborate underground martial arts tournament to decide who gets its.

[Duelist925]

Essentially, they all claim the title of Christian and are in an elaborate underground martial arts tournament to decide who gets its.

I am now imagining a huge winner take all All religions involved tournament.

Buddha just bodyslammed Kali, while Christ use's his cross like a Bo, while facing off against Thor and his hammer.

And it is glorious.

[Gravekeeper]

I am now imagining a huge winner take all All religions involved tournament.

You mean like this? ;p