My Problem With Christianity

[Canarr]

It bothers non-Christians what Christians believe because Christians have such a bad habit of forcing their beliefs on others, especially through the legislative process (blue laws, the attempts to outlaw homosexuality, attempting to force prayer in schools, etc).
Non-believes just want to be left the fuck alone, but that is too much for Christians to allow.

Actually, that appears to be a mostly American phenomenon. Being homosexual, or an atheist, or whatever is not a problem in Germany, where both Christian churches go calmly about their business and rarely bother anyone else. Yes, we did have our share of child abuse cases in Christian facilities, but those happened in purely secular schools, as well.

It's not Christians that are the problem. It's assholes.

[HYHYBT]

Islam and Judaism . . . both have much more direct from the source Holy text...

Interesting notion. Mind explaining it?

[Gravekeeper]

Why provide evidence that would promote people to leave your religion to go to another? Or are we Christians the only ones possibly capable of doing that?

Jesus is part of the Islamic religion though. This is why its kind of odd that some Christians claim such a monopoly on him. -.-

Interesting notion. Mind explaining it?

The Quran was written as it was spoken by Mohammad himself and he intentionally had his disciples recite and memorize it the verses as he taught them. It is in effect, the equivalent of having Jesus write the whole Bible himself and then tell all his disciples they better memorize it word for word. All of its chapters were immediately compiled into a book right after Mohammad's death and put into the care of his wife. A standardized version of it was then formalized 19 years after his death. This copy still exists and is kept in a museum in Uzbekistan.

So basically it'd be like having Jesus write the Bible himself and still have the original copy of it around ( Which would be remarkably handy ). This is why you don't see any huge debates over the contents of the Quran like you do with the Bible.

[crashhelmet]

Jesus is part of the Islamic religion though. This is why its kind of odd that some Christians claim such a monopoly on him. -.-

I'm not questioning his existence within their faith. I'm questioning his role and how he's portrayed.

*WHAT IF* He was more than just a prophet?

*WHAT IF* He was more than just a teacher?

Admitting to those things would be like McDonald's launching an ad campaign revealing that Burger King is better quality food.

As I said before, Jesus was killed for taking power away from those in power. They spun it as "this guy's just a teacher who has the audacity to claim he's the Son of God. He must die for that." They launched a smear campaign among the people to take all of the power out of his name, and today only acknowledge that he was a prophet or a teacher.

Couldn't there have been something similar going on in the Islamic faith to keep their followers?

[HYHYBT]

The Quran was written as it was spoken by Mohammad himself...

Thank you for the explanation. A lot of that I hadn't heard before.

[Gravekeeper]

I'm not questioning his existence within their faith. I'm questioning his role and how he's portrayed.

*WHAT IF* He was more than just a prophet?

*WHAT IF* He was more than just a teacher?

Only 1 of the 3 makes these claims and seeing that 1 took the other's Holy books and glued it into their own, I think Judaism gets to have a say in this. Plus the claims of Christ's divinity emerged later in the timeline of Christianity. He never really claimed divinity in the Bible and there are passages where he denies divinity when asked. There are also no major miracles attributed to Jesus that are not replicated by others at other points in the Bible. God pretty much resurrects people left, right and center. So he is not unique as a Biblical figure.

On top of that, many of the miracles ( and several aspects of the Jesus story ) attributed to Jesus are generously borrowed from earlier figures such as Buddha. Buddha did the whole walk on water thing hundreds of years before Jesus even existed. Interestingly enough despite Buddha loathing it when miracles were attributed to him, people still attributed miracles to him.

As I said before, Jesus was killed for taking power away from those in power. They spun it as "this guy's just a teacher who has the audacity to claim he's the Son of God. He must die for that." They launched a smear campaign among the people to take all of the power out of his name, and today only acknowledge that he was a prophet or a teacher.

Jesus was killed for pissing off the Romans ( he was rather a public shit disturber by all accounts ) and was crucified for sedition. The Gospels claim it was because Jesus claimed to be a King thus challenging Roman rule, not because he claimed to be the son of God. The smear campaign was actually directed at the Jews as blame was pinned on them for Jesus's death.

Couldn't there have been something similar going on in the Islamic faith to keep their followers?

I really don't think you understand here. Jesus is a loved and highly regarded figure in Islam. They were not under threat by Christianity. Islam emerged as a major religion *after* Jesus's death. Not before it. That is the entire core structure of Islam: God has sent a series of prophets to teach his word beginning with Adam in the Garden of Eden. Jesus is considered one of these prophets as is Mohammad. They are on equal terms in Islamic faith.

This is why there are passages in the Quran that deny the divinity of Jesus. Because Islam was coming into its own some time after Jesus's death when the claims of Jesus divinity where starting to emerge to raise his stock value. This struck Muslims as total heresy hence the Quran denies Jesus's divinity in direct response to the emerging narrative of his divinity at the time. Which was seen as heresy and the actions of man not the word of God. Both by Muslims and Jews.

[BlaqueKatt]

Yes, we did have our share of child abuse cases in Christian facilities, but those happened in purely secular schools, as well.

It's not Christians that are the problem. It's assholes.

but secular schools didn't have a written plan, from the "school leaders" on how to actively cover up abuse allegations, and prevent shame to the school did they?

[Canarr]

but secular schools didn't have a written plan, from the "school leaders" on how to actively cover up abuse allegations, and prevent shame to the school did they?

Don't know, on either case. Can you cite a source for that?

[BlaqueKatt]

Don't know, on either case. Can you cite a source for that?

um yeah

cardinal Ratzinger, now pope Benedict IX conspired to keep sex abuse investigations confidential, and within the church, not involving outside law enforcement, he was granted diplomatic immunity by pres, George W. Bush in 2005.

Sources

the Guardian
the london evening standard

In 2001, while he was a cardinal, he issued a secret Vatican edict to Catholic bishops all over the world, instructing them to put the Church's interests ahead of child safety.

The document recommended that rather than reporting sexual abuse to the relevant legal authorities, bishops should encourage the victim, witnesses and perpetrator not to talk about it. And, to keep victims quiet, it threatened that if they repeat the allegations they would be excommunicated.

Five years ago he sent out an updated version of the notorious 1962 Vatican document Crimen Sollicitationis - Latin for The Crime of Solicitation - which laid down the Vatican's strict instructions on covering up sexual scandal. It was regarded as so secret that it came with instructions that bishops had to keep it locked in a safe at all times.

Cardinal Ratzinger reinforced the strict cover-up policy by introducing a new principle: that the Vatican must have what it calls Exclusive Competence. In other words, he commanded that all child abuse allegations should be dealt with direct by Rome.

Patrick Wall, a former Vatican-approved enforcer of the Crimen Sollicitationis in America, tells the programme: "I found out I wasn't working for a holy institution, but an institution that was wholly concentrated on protecting itself."

And Father Tom Doyle, a Vatican lawyer until he was sacked for criticising the church's handling of child abuse claims, says: "What you have here is an explicit written policy to cover up cases of child sexual abuse by the clergy and to punish those who would call attention to these crimes by the churchmen.

[crashhelmet]

I really don't think you understand here. Jesus is a loved and highly regarded figure in Islam. They were not under threat by Christianity. Islam emerged as a major religion *after* Jesus's death. Not before it. That is the entire core structure of Islam: God has sent a series of prophets to teach his word beginning with Adam in the Garden of Eden. Jesus is considered one of these prophets as is Mohammad. They are on equal terms in Islamic faith.

This is why there are passages in the Quran that deny the divinity of Jesus. Because Islam was coming into its own some time after Jesus's death when the claims of Jesus divinity where starting to emerge to raise his stock value. This struck Muslims as total heresy hence the Quran denies Jesus's divinity in direct response to the emerging narrative of his divinity at the time. Which was seen as heresy and the actions of man not the word of God. Both by Muslims and Jews.

Again, I don't think you understand my questions. The Quran, just like the Christian Bible, was written by Man. Can you use the argument that one is fallible because of it and the other is not?

If it was written at the same time Christian bible was being "enhanced" who's to say that it wasn't influenced by bias as well?