Adam, Eve and the Apple.

[Gravekeeper]

Well, I'm not really concerned with whose opinion it was. I love studying both theology and philosophy, and I've formed my own opinions after my own research.

You should look into her work, its pretty interesting and its actual research not just some loony writing Jeebus books. As painfully many are.

[Jaden]

You should look into her work, its pretty interesting and its actual research not just some loony writing Jeebus books. As painfully many are.

I will keep that in mind, thank you I'm always willing to read interesting perspectives on theological or philosophical matters.

[Rageaholic]

From what I gather, fundamentalist literalists haven't been around as long they'd have you think (not even 200 years). The pentecostal church (one of the more nuttier churches) started in the late 1800s. I think the Baptists are only 300 years old as well.

Now here's what I wonder, since the Adam and Eve story is just that, a story, doesn't that debunk the whole original sin/total deprevity thing?

[Jaden]

From what I gather, fundamentalist literalists haven't been around as long they'd have you think (not even 200 years). The pentecostal church (one of the more nuttier churches) started in the late 1800s. I think the Baptists are only 300 years old as well.

It's been around just under 200 years or so. As far as I know, most of it can be attributed to John Darby, who basically invented dispensationalism ("Left Behind theology", as I like to call it).

Now here's what I wonder, since the Adam and Eve story is just that, a story, doesn't that debunk the whole original sin/total deprevity thing?

Well, it doesn't "debunk" anything. Adam and Eve could be intended to be literal or it could be a metaphor. Either way, if you hypothetically accept the Bible as some form of truth (which I assume you are for the purposes of this discussion, otherwise there'd be no need to debunk it), then it still holds up the original sin thing. Even if it is a metaphor or totally symbolic, it's still in the Bible for a reason. Either it's saying the story of Adam and Eve literally happened, in which case, obviously, original sin came about that way, or it's an analogy for our fallen state as human beings...in which case, we are still fallen and original sin is still present, for one reason or another.

[Rageaholic]

Jaden: It depends on how far you want to take the original sin doctrine. I've heard some respond to the question of why do bad things happen to good people by saying "there are no good people". These people use the Adam and Ever story as a justification as why we are "tainted" with this original sin. And some extreme Catholics believe that unbaptized babies go to hell because of OS.

It's a pretty extreme view. I mean, one would have to wonder why God would create people a certain way and punish them for it. I've heard free will, but if God were to truely respect free will, there'd be no need for such an extreme punishment for not using it properly. Typically, it all comes down to the Adam and Eve story as their defense for this "fallen" world. Everything was perfect until the first humans screwed up by eating the apple and all hell literally broke loose. Now apparently, everything we do is evil to an extent. Sex? It's evil. Pleasure? That's evil too.

The Adam and Ever story is a simple (yet faulty) explaination for why natural things are considered evil and why we are born "flawed". But if you take out the apple explaination, you cannot explain how we are born flawed without assuming that God created us wrong. (and it would be incredibly unjust for to punish people for being the way he created them). I mean, I guess there could be another explaination, the Adam and Eve story is the only explaination I've heard. And I simply don't believe such a story.

[Gravekeeper]

I mean, I guess there could be another explaination, the Adam and Eve story is the only explaination I've heard. And I simply don't believe such a story.

run Deism.exe

God does not punish nor reward nor favour any one group over another, because God does not interfere. Any positives or negatives affecting our lives are the result of our free will. While it may not seem fair on the surface, who and what we are born as is still the direct result of choices being made by our ancestors in accord with their own free will.

;p

[Rageaholic]

Yeah, deism is something that has always made sense to me. It ultimately answers the questions of where we came from without forcing all these "morals" at people.

I actually think it's more fair than the Christian God (or at least the fundamentalist version) because their God punishes people for victimless crimes (homosexuality, lust, masturbation, ect). At least the deist God respects human free will without demanding punishment for petty sins.

[Jaden]

As for the question of where original sin came from if Adam and Eve is allegory rather than literal, well, I never claimed to have all the answers. Sometimes it's just better to say "I don't know" and let my faith take over. But I'm not asking you to believe the same things or have the same faith as me, just saying, I understand I can't explain everything I believe, and I never will be able to, but I try to explain as much as I can

Yeah, deism is something that has always made sense to me. It ultimately answers the questions of where we came from without forcing all these "morals" at people.

I actually think it's more fair than the Christian God (or at least the fundamentalist version) because their God punishes people for victimless crimes (homosexuality, lust, masturbation, ect). At least the deist God respects human free will without demanding punishment for petty sins.

The Christian God I follow has only two laws - love the Lord your God with all your heart, soul, mind, and strength, and love your neighbor as yourself. In fact, the only times hell is talked about in the Bible, the entire reason why people go there is due to how they treat other people - "what you have done unto the least of these", you have also done unto me, clothing the naked, feeding the hungry, etc. Furthermore, "Love covers a multitude of sins" from 1 Peter 4:8 has always stood out to me as both one of the most important Bible verses and one of the most overlooked.

[Gravekeeper]

The Christian God I follow has only two laws - love the Lord your God with all your heart, soul, mind, and strength, and love your neighbor as yourself.

Whilst I on the other hand would reject the concept of any God that commands my adoration. As such a command is petty, illogical and unfair when viewed in respect to the whole of the human race.

In fact, the only times hell is talked about in the Bible, the entire reason why people go there is due to how they treat other people

The concept of Hell, objectively speaking, is fundementally psychopathic, cruel and also unfair due to the multitude of mitigating circumstances that could be affecting an individual. Its a direct contradiction to a supposedly loving God.

-.-

[Rageaholic]

As for the question of where original sin came from if Adam and Eve is allegory rather than literal, well, I never claimed to have all the answers. Sometimes it's just better to say "I don't know" and let my faith take over. But I'm not asking you to believe the same things or have the same faith as me, just saying, I understand I can't explain everything I believe, and I never will be able to, but I try to explain as much as I can

Yeah, sometimes it is best to say that you don't know. That's the position I take when it comes to spiritual matters as I find it's a much healthier, honest, and humble way to take it.

With that said...

Whilst I on the other hand would reject the concept of any God that commands my adoration. As such a command is petty, illogical and unfair when viewed in respect to the whole of the human race.

Agreed. You can't command someone to love you, especially when you remain hidden. Although I've often heard it say that if you love God, you'll love others. However...

The concept of Hell, objectively speaking, is fundementally psychopathic, cruel and also unfair due to the multitude of mitigating circumstances that could be affecting an individual. Its a direct contradiction to a supposedly loving God.

-.-

Hell is simply too horrific of a punishment for even the worst monsters in history! ESPECIALLY when you consider the circumstances that could lead to those people commiting those atrocities. I guess you could say that God will take into account all that, but if that's true, then is there really any need for an eternal hell?