Is atheism geared more toward christianity?

[Jaden]

Born in a native tribe far from civilization, and never exposed to Christianity? Too bad, you go to hell, and you stay there forever. Likewise if you're presented with the real-day problem of conflicting doctrines. Pick the wrong one, and you're damned to hell forever, even if you're otherwise a good, moral person who strives to commit as few sins as possible, and earnestly repents the ones you did commit.

Paul addresses the former point briefly in Romans 1. I believe that people who are never exposed to Christianity are judged differently - still judged, like the rest of us, but in a different light. As for the second point, I believe I just mentioned a few posts ago that the few times hell is mentioned in the Bible, it's always mentioned in the light of how you treated other people, and nothing else. As Andara said, the central tenets of Christians are a belief in God, a belief that Jesus died for your sins, and to love your neighbor as yourself. Your last statement simply isn't Biblically supported.

Evidently, some people think that merely believing you should be nice to other people and having some modicum of a belief in Jesus is enough, even though they don't believe in a hefty portion of what's written in the Bible and have probably never taken the time to read the Bible in its entirety. Okay, if you insist, then I'll call you a Christian, but it really doesn't make a whole lot of sense.

So what reason would there be for Andara and I not being Christians? What rituals aren't we conducting which Jesus said to conduct? Tell me, where in the Bible does it say that I have to go to church every Sunday to be saved? As I already said, I believe in God, I believe that Jesus died for my sins, and I believe in loving my neighbor as myself. That is all the Bible says that there is to salvation. Levitical laws don't matter anymore - Jesus said as much, and replaced with the new, much more simple law, as I've already outlined.

And yes, I am quite familiar with the Bible, thank you very much. So, please, tell me why I'm not a Christian, if you feel that way.

[guywithashovel]

*sigh* It seems almost impossible to talk about this.

I never said you were not a Christian, and I never said Andara wasn't a Christian. I just pointed out why I stopped calling myself a Christian, and I said that if you don't believe in a hefty portion of what's written in the Bible and don't do anything else to practice the religion, I can understand why some people might wonder why you even bother putting the label on yourself in the first place.

However, as I said in my previous post, if you insist you're a Christian, I'll call you a Christian.

[Andara Bledin]

However, as I said in my previous post, if you insist you're a Christian, I'll call you a Christian.

The way you put it is that you'll mouth the words, but you don't believe them or us, as though we were like lions who painted spots on our sides and insisted we were leopards.

You'd get a better reception on the statement if it didn't sound like you were making it under duress or humoring us.

^-.-^

[AdminAssistant]

My impression has always been that the core tenet of Christianity is that we are all born as sinful creatures, and that we must seek salvation through Christ in order to be with God in Heaven when we die. (Note: I was raised Southern Baptist.) Salvation is the only means to Heaven; good works alone are worth nothing.

The question for me is, if you believe that you should live as good a life as possible and that your destination after death is determined by works and not faith...why believe at all? If you don't believe in Heaven/Hell, then what does "For God so loved the world that he sent his only begotten Son so that we would not perish but have eternal life" add to the equation? Why not just be a good person?

[Jaden]

The question for me is, if you believe that you should live as good a life as possible and that your destination after death is determined by works and not faith...why believe at all? If you don't believe in Heaven/Hell, then what does "For God so loved the world that he sent his only begotten Son so that we would not perish but have eternal life" add to the equation? Why not just be a good person?

I believe it's both. As I said, Believing in God, Jesus' death on the cross and resurrection (the Salvation aspect), and loving your neighbor as yourself (the good works). That's what the Bible says, as best as I can tell.

I could start a topic on the erroneous notion of faith and nothing but, but to keep it brief - I think the whole "Good works are meaningless, faith alone is the only thing that matters" is a kneejerk anti-Catholic sentiment by Protestants (note: I myself am a Protestant, this is something on which I disagree with many of them). Let me quote the verse that every pastor uses to justify this argument.

Ephesians 2:8-9

"For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast."

Seems self-explanatory enough, but that's because, for whatever reason, many people simply stop there and don't continue onto the next verse.

Ephesians 2:10

"For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them."

Emphasis mine. So, yes, it's true that our faith is what ultimately saves us according to The Bible, but it also makes it clear that faith without the good works is pointless.

Perhaps an even more important passage is in James 2:14-27

"What good is it, my brothers, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can that faith save him? If a brother or sister is poorly clothed and lacking in daily food, and one of you says to them, “Go in peace, be warmed and filled,” without giving them the things needed for the body, what good is that? So also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead."

Faith without works cannot save you, so it says. That faith is dead.

NOTE: In the sentence "I could start a topic on the erroneous notion of faith and nothing but" I originally wrote "salvation and nothing but" which is totally not what I meant to say. I meant faith and nothing but as a means to salvation, and that erroneous notion. Sorry about that.

[Andara Bledin]

You can be a humanist and a Christian at the same time. This is another false dichotomy often held by both sides. It's yet another form of othering that precludes true understanding.

I think most of us agree that you don't have to be religious to be a decent person. But being a decent person for the sake of being decent doesn't necessarily mean that religion becomes irrelevant.

^-.-^

[Nekojin]

Jaden: Pay attention here:

My impression has always been that the core tenet of Christianity is that we are all born as sinful creatures, and that we must seek salvation through Christ in order to be with God in Heaven when we die. (Note: I was raised Southern Baptist.) Salvation is the only means to Heaven; good works alone are worth nothing.

Yes, precisely. Every Christian sect that I've had direct contact with maintained that two things were crucial to your salvation:

1.) Belief in Jesus' divinity
2.) Acceptance of Jesus as your savior.

Without those two points, it didn't matter how good of a person you were, you still couldn't go to heaven.

The Catholic doctrine is a little less severe than the rest in one point: People who have no chance to be exposed to Christianity go to Purgatory, instead of Hell.

Some sects believe that you also had to believe in just the right way - that is, be part of their sect - while some of the more egalitarian sects say that it doesn't really matter what church you go to (if any), as long as you were true to 1 and 2 above, and were a generally good person.

Friction like this is why some people feel that they can say group A aren't "true" Christians, while group A believes that they're devout.

[Jaden]

Jaden: Pay attention here:

[...]

1.) Belief in Jesus' divinity
2.) Acceptance of Jesus as your savior.

I'm not really sure why this was directed at me, but it's possible I missed something I suppose

I did say that the three crucial things were belief in God, belief in Jesus' death and resurrection for your sins, and loving your neighbor as yourself. The two points you made are, as far as I'm concerned, wrapped up in the "belief in Jesus' death" part. If I didn't make that clear, I apologize. As I said, both faith and works are important. I provided Biblical support as to why.

Or were you trying to make a different point to me? Like I said, I'm mildly confused by the direction of the post towards me. By all means, if I was unclear on something or if you're trying to make a point to me, please let me know what I missed.

[Rageaholic]

But the doctrine that ultimately made me decide that I wasn't a Christian of any stripe was the oppressive doctrine of Hell. Not its existence - I do believe that there are some people who are so vile that they DO need to be punished beyond what mortal law can manage - but both its strident intolerance and its permanence. Born in a native tribe far from civilization, and never exposed to Christianity? Too bad, you go to hell, and you stay there forever. Likewise if you're presented with the real-day problem of conflicting doctrines. Pick the wrong one, and you're damned to hell forever, even if you're otherwise a good, moral person who strives to commit as few sins as possible, and earnestly repents the ones you did commit. That just doesn't seem like something a loving, benevolent god would do.

I couldn't have said it better. What's even worse is the explanation I've heard for it. They say everyone deserves hell so we can hardly complain if we get our "just deserts".

Why do we deserve hell?
Because we sin and can't help it.
Then why did God make people who sin?
Oh he didn't make us this way, it was our free will. He wanted people to choose to love him.
Then why punish people for not excercising it right?
Oh God doesn't "send" anyone to hell. "We" send ourselves there.

When it comes down to it, it all sounds like a bunch of excuses for why we should follow the rules or else. Even those who believe in faith saved salvation believe there's some criteria for who was really saved. I guess you could say this is only what the fundamentalists believe, but I've seen this implied in even more liberal denominations. For instance, one of the last times I went to church, the deacon was talking about how Christ was our standard. Not that following Christ example of love your neighbor is wrong, but even that can be taken to extremes.

Basically, it's the stress of living up to some kind of standard and fearing some horrific afterlife for failing. Especially when that standard is so high that human faults are considered grave sins that can literally damn you.

[Nekojin]

I'm not really sure why this was directed at me, but it's possible I missed something I suppose

I did say that the three crucial things were belief in God, belief in Jesus' death and resurrection for your sins, and loving your neighbor as yourself. The two points you made are, as far as I'm concerned, wrapped up in the "belief in Jesus' death" part. If I didn't make that clear, I apologize. As I said, both faith and works are important. I provided Biblical support as to why.

Or were you trying to make a different point to me? Like I said, I'm mildly confused by the direction of the post towards me. By all means, if I was unclear on something or if you're trying to make a point to me, please let me know what I missed.

I probably owe you an apology - I took the post at the top of this page to mean that you were saying that good works were all that mattered.

[Jaden]

I probably owe you an apology - I took the post at the top of this page to mean that you were saying that good works were all that mattered.

Thanks. No apology necessary. You weren't rude or anything, and misunderstandings happen

[Rebel]

I've said it before and i'll say it again. "Religion" is nothing more than a set of beliefs one adheres to. Atheism is a religion. A non-deity based religion, but a religion none the less. Humanitarianism is as well.

Heh.

via Merriam-Webster;

RELIGION:
1: the service and worship of God or the supernatural (2) : commitment or devotion to religious faith or observance
2: a personal set or institutionalized system of religious attitudes, beliefs, and practices
3: archaic : scrupulous conformity : conscientiousness
4: a cause, principle, or system of beliefs held to with ardor and faith

ATHEISM:
1: The disbelief in the existence of a deity.

The only thing every atheist in the world has in common is that they don't believe in any gods.
We have no doctrine that we follow, no single book that tells us how to think, and no leaders that we bow down to.
Atheism is not a religion.

[Nekojin]

Thank you for reminding me about that quote, Rebel. I meant to comment on it, and forgot about it.

I've said it before and i'll say it again. "Religion" is nothing more than a set of beliefs one adheres to. Atheism is a religion. A non-deity based religion, but a religion none the less. Humanitarianism is as well.

"A set of beliefs one adheres to" can describe philosophies and ethea*. A religion and a philosophy are similar but different matters, in the same way that morality and ethics are similar but different.

* That's the plural of "ethos," which I didn't know before I started writing this post. Learn something new every day! =^_^=

[Gravekeeper]

I've said it before and i'll say it again. "Religion" is nothing more than a set of beliefs one adheres to. Atheism is a religion. A non-deity based religion, but a religion none the less. Humanitarianism is as well.

Atheism is not a religion. There's no point in calling it one aside from trying to rile up Atheists. Atheism does not involve belief no matter how much anyone tries to twist semantics. Atheism is the default setting. The absence of beliefs that fall outside of scientific possibility or knowledge.

To say Atheism is a religion is to say science is a belief.

[Andara Bledin]

What's been said before: Atheism is not a belief but a lack of, rejection, or dismissal of such and no amount of semantic wrangling will drag it around to be what it isn't.

^-.-^