Is atheism geared more toward christianity?

[Jaden]

Aw! I feel so warm and fuzzy. Apologies being issued and accepted in an Atheism/Christian thread? My goodness!

Apologies between an atheist and a Christian no less

My being an atheist means I do not believe in any god or religious, divine presence.

Hmm, there's something I found very interesting about this discussion. Crashhelmet, when talking about atheism, says that it is the belief that there is no god. STD, on the other hand, says that being an atheist means you don't believe in any god. Both of these statements mean exactly the same thing, really, but the wording difference is crucial since one incorporates belief and one doesn't. That's really the major dispute here - how one describes and categorizes atheism.

I don't know where I stand on the issue of whether or not atheism qualifies as a religion - I've thought different things at different points in my life, and right now I'm not convinced of either side. But, for the sake of argument, here's a thought experiment - what if I were to describe Christianity in such a way that it means that I do not believe in a lack of a god?

What would it be at this point? It's a lack of a belief, isn't it?

[Nekojin]

But, for the sake of argument, here's a thought experiment - what if I were to describe Christianity in such a way that it means that I do not believe in a lack of a god?

What would it be at this point? It's a lack of a belief, isn't it?

I think that most Christians would say that's a totally inadequate description of Christianity, and some would find it a bit insulting.

Edit for additional content: Christianity isn't just a disbelief in a lack of a god, it is an affirmative and direct belief in one specific god, the one detailed in the Bible. While it would be accurate to say that some atheists have an affirmative and direct belief in a lack of any gods, that wouldn't be accurate for all atheists. Some just simply lack any belief in gods.

[Jaden]

Ok, good point. Replace "Christianity" in my post with "theism", and that might make it a bit stronger

[Andara Bledin]

Hmm, there's something I found very interesting about this discussion. Crashhelmet, when talking about atheism, says that it is the belief that there is no god. STD, on the other hand, says that being an atheist means you don't believe in any god. Both of these statements mean exactly the same thing, really, but the wording difference is crucial since one incorporates belief and one doesn't.

Not quite.

There is a subtle but very important difference in not believing in something that may or may not exist and believing that something definitely does not exist.

Take the phrase, "I don't believe in gambling." The person is not saying that gambling doesn't exist, merely that it isn't a part of their life and they do not have a use for it.

There's a lot of room for nuance in any statement of "I don't believe in X." To flatten it out into a black/white position switch introduces a lot of assumption, not all of which will be correct, which leads to lack of understanding.

^-.-^

[Jaden]

Not quite.

There is a subtle but very important difference in not believing in something that may or may not exist and believing that something definitely does not exist.

Take the phrase, "I don't believe in gambling." The person is not saying that gambling doesn't exist, merely that it isn't a part of their life and they do not have a use for it.

There's a lot of room for nuance in any statement of "I don't believe in X." To flatten it out into a black/white position switch introduces a lot of assumption, not all of which will be correct, which leads to lack of understanding.

^-.-^

Theoretically, you're correct, but we're talking about atheism here. Now, by all means, correct me if I'm wrong, but as far as I know, atheism literally means you don't believe that a god exists. If you have doubt that a god may or may not exist, that's agnosticism, and not the subject of the discussion. I don't think any atheists don't believe in God in the same way as your gambling parallel - that a god exists but that they don't have use for it and it's not part of their life.

Atheists don't believe that a god exists. It really is as simple and black and a white as that, is it not? You're right, as I said, in that there is technically more wiggle room in the phrase of "don't believe" than there is in the phrase of believe, but it's not wiggle room that's utilized by atheism. Again, the "may or may not exist" thought pattern is agnosticism. Furthermore, I'm trying to reach understanding - shutting anybody down isn't my goal in any discussion. As I said, I don't know where I stand on the issue of atheism qualifying as a religion.

Typing this post also made me realize something - I always hear people arguing about whether atheism is a religion, but does anybody argue whether agnosticism is a religion or not? I'd be interested to know what crashhelmet says, in particular - since the entire basis of agnosticism avoids the question of belief in the first place, I'm guessing not, but I figured I'd bring it up.

[crashhelmet]

Typing this post also made me realize something - I always hear people arguing about whether atheism is a religion, but does anybody argue whether agnosticism is a religion or not? I'd be interested to know what crashhelmet says, in particular - since the entire basis of agnosticism avoids the question of belief in the first place, I'm guessing not, but I figured I'd bring it up.

This is a little tricky. I don't fully understand agnosticism. I'm currently relying on Wikipedia to help educate me on this and will gladly accept corrective criticism.

Weak Agnosticism would not be a religion as there is no certainty. However, as they learn the answers to their questions, they may lean towards the Theist or Atheist sides and possibly eventually move out of Agnosticism all together.

Strong Agnosticism sounds like it would be a religion. It has certainty and, dare I say, close mindedness. It sounds like it is a firm set of beliefs that can't or won't change like Weak Agnosticism would.

[Andara Bledin]

Theoretically, you're correct, but we're talking about atheism here. Now, by all means, correct me if I'm wrong, but as far as I know, atheism literally means you don't believe that a god exists. If you have doubt that a god may or may not exist, that's agnosticism, and not the subject of the discussion. I don't think any atheists don't believe in God in the same way as your gambling parallel - that a god exists but that they don't have use for it and it's not part of their life.

Atheist means without god, no more, no less. It is not necessarily a declaration that there is no god in and of itself.

Also, one must note whether they're speaking of a state of being or religious identification. If you're speaking of the former, then Gravekeeper (as our vocal resident Buddhist) would be both religious and atheist. If you're speaking the latter, than anyone who self-identified as religious in any manner would not qualify as atheist, so Gravekeeper (as our vocal resident Buddhist) would not be an Atheist. Since there's so much opportunity for confusion, I'm going to start noting when I'm speaking of the non-religious with a capital A and speaking of just the state of lacking gods with lower case.

Agnosticism is an interesting tangent, as it's not directly theist or atheist on its own. It's a slightly different level of the belief structure, and tossing it in will usually add to the confusion for everybody involved.

^-.-^

[Gravekeeper]

There seems to be an incredible amount of confusion here over the term "belief". Here's a hint: "I believe in God" and "I don't believe there is a God" are not the same definition of the word. There's a difference between a belief in an abstract sense and believe as a statement of accepting or denying a particular point or position.

Atheists do not believe there is no God, they don't believe the claims that there is a God.

Huge difference.

[Lachrymose]

Mostly to crashhelmet:

Are newborn babies atheists?

[Duelist925]

Mostly to crashhelmet:

Are newborn babies atheists?

Newborn babes have neither the intellectual, nor emotional capacity to understand the concept of god. Or, indeed, the concept of object permanence. To them, once something isnt in their field of vision, it doesn't exist--so as far as their concerned, You dont exist until you're in front of them again. So wether or not god exists is a moot point for them--their not even sure they parents exist.

[Lachrymose]

Mm hmm.

In other words, they lack belief in deities.

They are atheist: the default position.

ETA: according to one of the definitions, I suppose.

[Duelist925]

Mm hmm.

In other words, they lack belief in deities.

They are atheist: the default position.

ETA: according to one of the definitions, I suppose.

They lack the ability to believe or lack belief. Its like asking if a cat is an athiest--its a moot point. They don't have the ability, one way, or the other, until they grow. They neither believe, nor disbelieve--they have no concept of it.

It's almost Zen when I think about it hard enough.

[crashhelmet]

Atheists do not believe there is no God, they don't believe the claims that there is a God.

Huge difference.

I'm trying to figure out what you mean by this statement. As I've already said, I don't know much, if anything really, about Agnosticism, but this sounds like you're saying Atheists aren't Atheists, they're Agnostics.

Atheists say "I don't believe in the existence of gods" - Definitive
Agnostics say "I don't believe in the claims of the existence of gods" - Open for evidence, as in if someone was to present a different claim, they may change their outlook.

[Andara Bledin]

Agnosticism isn't on the same plane as Atheism. Agnostics can be Athiests, or they can choose to be religious.

Not all Atheists are agnostic, and not all agnostics are Atheist.

Plus, some agnostics refuse to be part of either camp regardless of where they would be pigeon-holed in a survey. Whether through apathy or a hardline choice on not having made a decision, they declare themselves to be on the fence entirely.

^-.-^

[Hyena Dandy]

There's agnostic atheists, which would be "I don't know whether God exists, I'm going with no."
And there's agnostic theists, which would be "I don' know whether God exists, I'm going with yes."

That's how I understand it