your rapist is forgiven, your mother goes to hell!

[siead_lietrathua]

one thing i find semi-odd is that i've seen the stance on abortion pick their "date of life" at conception. so, egg meet sperm.
but many eggs that get fertalized never implant in the body, and leave the body with the mentrstral cycle. technically, it's an abortion. (since abortion is just another word for miscarrige, and does not solely mean medically-induced miscarriges). but this can happen to many many woman without them even having knowledge of it.
i'm wondering if the church would consider "natural abortions" or miscarriges as damning as well, or as an act of god. and, branching from there, could god not be working through the doctors performing abortions on people that need them to survive (esotopic pregnancies, etc). same as i've heard it said god working through doctors that help cure cancer patients and the like.

the heat makes me rambly apperantly....

[crashhelmet]

Thank god you are able to read minds and know everything about these women. Otherwise you would just be talking from a place of ignorance.

I didn't have to read their minds. Their own words explained their actions and their reasoning.

Education is where they were failed here. Education about their own bodies and that of their partners. Also possibly the church, as I'm assuming they may be religious like you.
It's possible that the birth control was affecting their bodies in ways that you would be completely unaware of. I once took a pill that made me so depressed I used to smile at the thought of cutting my wrists just to watch them bleed. Other women can have mood swings, some that can make them unreasonably angry and violent. Or you can gain weight, something that girls are told makes them disgusting and lazy by society. Others are denied being able to use birth control by their parents, their church, or their community because only whores and harlots use it. And they are good girls who would never find themselves accidentally pregnant. God will protect them.

Your sister made a decision that was right for herself and her health at the time. How dare you judge her.
Your friend sounds like she comes from a religious background. BC is often looked down upon for women because that makes them whores.
The other girl is no different. Education failed her. And her excuse of it being a hassle is valid. I switched to an implant because taking a pill at the exact time every day was a hassle and I often forgot. And again, I love how you're able to read her mind and know all her motives. That must come in handy.

And I love how you're only focusing on the women in those examples. Not like men hold any responsibility at all. Nope.

My sister was baptized Catholic, but she doesn't practice. And yes, you could say that religion had something to do with it. My family's religious beliefs led my sister to originally tell everyone that she miscarried out of fear of being ostracized. It was only later that she told the truth to us.

No, my sister did not make a decision based on her health. Seriously... Do you read what i'm writing in here? I feel like I'm having a debate with the bulkhead. My sister aborted the baby so that they wouldn't have to move out of their apartment and back into a house on a piece of property right next door to her in-laws, who owned both.

The other two women are atheists.

None of them have any allergic or adverse reactions to birth control. None that they've admitted to when asked anyway. Yes, I've asked. Why don't you use a condom? Why don't you go on the pill, use a diaphragm, etc etc etc.

As I pointed out, one proudly spoke about how much she enjoyed not using a condom and how much she did not like the "hassles" of the other methods.

Why does your choice matter?
The woman's choice is the only one that is important.

You keep insinuating that I value the life of the fetus over the life of the mother. Where I have said several times in this thread alone that I do not.

Hello wall! How's your day going wall?

But you're right. My choice doesn't matter. I'm only given 2 choices when it comes to the birth of a child. I can choose to wear a condom or not and I can choose to pay child support or not.

Wow. That is an amazing straw-man argument. A truly divine one.
I'm so glad you're so educated on abortion that you can prove that this hypothetical has happened. Ever.

You mean to tell me that you've never heard of a Dilation and Extraction procedure, aka the Partial Birth Abortion? There is also the process where they inject drugs into the baby's heart to get it to stop beating prior to performing the D&X or a C-Section to remove it. Who's the uneducated one here?

And it is not a straw man argument. You keep stating that women have the right to abort a baby at any point and you continue to dodge the question of what you define life to be. So I simply asked if an abortion at 37 weeks is still just a "mass of cells" or if it's a life.

Late term abortions, like the one you've put forward, are only ever done in the event of danger to the mothers life or if the fetus is unviable.
Women who have them done this late are doing it out of love or out of necessity.
Thank god you're there to judge them from your place of ignorance.
Well done sir.

Wait... I thought late term pregnancies were hypothetical? Isn't that what you just accused me of making up?

The fact remains that you don't value women very highly.

I place upon you the onus to show where I have ever said that I don't value women very highly. Give me one single example where I have made a comment to show me as a misogynist.

Guess what? Don't care.
He raped a 9 year old girl and sexually assaulted a disabled 14 year old girl that was in his care.
If you want to try defend him, then you're no better than him.
The church are coddling a pedophile and attacking a young abused girls saviours.
Though I'm not really surprised by this action from them at this point.

You seriously need to work on your reading comprehension. I made no attempt to defend him. I stated the grounds for what could possibly prevent the Church from excommunicating him.

Necessary. It's a very easy word. You should learn it.

Abortion is a necessary medical procedure performed only on people with uteruses.
People who have uteruses are the only people who matter in regards to this procedure.

Of course it's only performed on people with a uterus.

It has been performed for as long as women have been sentient and have found themselves with an unwanted pregnancy.

Oh really? Do you have empirical evidence of it? How do you do which women have wanted and not wanted to be pregnant? Can you read minds? Can you read the minds of people that have been long dead for centuries? See, I can turn that mind reading thing around on you too.

Abortion allows women to stay healthy, get out of abusive situations, continue their education and allow them to be the best mothers they can to their children.

So does responsibility, maturity, and as you pointed out before education.

You don't need to like or support abortions. Simply put, because your opinion doesn't matter.

And as an Atheist, your opinion on Church doctrine doesn't matter either.

[Andara Bledin]

... branching from there, could god not be working through the doctors performing abortions on people that need them to survive (esotopic pregnancies, etc). same as i've heard it said god working through doctors that help cure cancer patients and the like.

Oh, no.

God only words through people to do things that they agree with, not for any of the things they don't like. >_>

^-.-^

[siead_lietrathua]

Oh, no.

God only words through people to do things that they agree with, not for any of the things they don't like. >_>

^-.-^

oh that gave me a gigglefit (the mental-hearing was a plain, dry monotone of sarcasm. hope that was the intent)
mostly because i've mumbled the same thing to my hubs when grandma goes off on her churchyrants.

i'll have to remember that one next time abortion comes up at a family hangout (we talk politics/religion and whatnot for fun)

[Andara Bledin]

oh that gave me a gigglefit (the mental-hearing was a plain, dry monotone of sarcasm. hope that was the intent)...

Oh, it was definitely chock-full of sarcasm. The tone I leave up to your preference.

When I say stuff like that, though, it's usually with the tone of a child explaining how the world works when they are completely sure of the truth of what they're saying because that's how the adults around them act.

^-.-^

[siead_lietrathua]

Oh, it was definitely chock-full of sarcasm. The tone I leave up to your preference.

When I say stuff like that, though, it's usually with the tone of a child explaining how the world works when they are completely sure of the truth of what they're saying because that's how the adults around them act.

^-.-^

awesome


back to the topic:

this is not a case of some woman floozing about that chose not to practice safer sex. this is not a case of a failed birth control method.

this is a case involving the constant, methodical abuse of an adult in a position of power over a nine year old child.
a child that has probably only begun her menstral life within the same year of getting pregnant. this girl may have never even had her first period because she became pregnant through her repeated abuse on her first ovulation.
this is about protecting a child. a living, breathing, abused, scared child.

i know this thread went off on abortions in general. but let's be realistic here. this 9 year old kid would never have been able to properly carry twins to term. even if her body could handle it, her mind would probably have broken.
the twins would have a high risk of being born underformed or stillborn because of her age, and the stress the child would go through would also increase the chances. the child could also die during the pregnancy and birth, since her pelvic bone and muscles have not finished developing to a point where she can safely give birth. she could have a cesarian, but again that's adding more trauma to this already vicimized youth.

when abusers groom their victims, the victim is often taught that they will be perceived as the one at fault should they ever tell anyone. that the abuser will not be punished as harshly as their victim. that girl just had the message her abuser was probably putting in her head brutally reinforced by being excommunicated from her religion, in a very religious country. can you imagine how much more that will mess up that child?

the people who made the decision to condemn a child and her saviours for doing what was needed to save her life and sanity need to be slapped.



.. this went on a longer rant than i indended. sorry.

[Andara Bledin]

when abusers groom their victims, the victim is often taught that they will be perceived as the one at fault should they ever tell anyone. that the abuser will not be punished as harshly as their victim. that girl just had the message her abuser was probably putting in her head brutally reinforced by being excommunicated from her religion, in a very religious country. can you imagine how much more that will mess up that child?

the people who made the decision to condemn a child and her saviours for doing what was needed to save her life and sanity need to be slapped.

Well, they didn't actually excommunicate the girl, herself, just her mother and the doctors responsible for saving her life. And, to that end, I'm not sure it really makes much difference, because she is still being punished by the religious leaders more than her abuser, which is sick and wrong and inexcusable by any means.

^-.-^

[siead_lietrathua]

Well, they didn't actually excommunicate the girl, herself, just her mother and the doctors responsible for saving her life. And, to that end, I'm not sure it really makes much difference, because she is still being punished by the religious leaders more than her abuser, which is sick and wrong and inexcusable by any means.

^-.-^

well ya, and she will see that her coming to the doctor/ speaking of her abuse resulted in all these other people being punished, reinforcing that she is the bad person.

[crashhelmet]

awesome


back to the topic:

this is not a case of some woman floozing about that chose not to practice safer sex. this is not a case of a failed birth control method.

this is a case involving the constant, methodical abuse of an adult in a position of power over a nine year old child.
a child that has probably only begun her menstral life within the same year of getting pregnant. this girl may have never even had her first period because she became pregnant through her repeated abuse on her first ovulation.
this is about protecting a child. a living, breathing, abused, scared child.

i know this thread went off on abortions in general. but let's be realistic here. this 9 year old kid would never have been able to properly carry twins to term. even if her body could handle it, her mind would probably have broken.
the twins would have a high risk of being born underformed or stillborn because of her age, and the stress the child would go through would also increase the chances. the child could also die during the pregnancy and birth, since her pelvic bone and muscles have not finished developing to a point where she can safely give birth. she could have a cesarian, but again that's adding more trauma to this already vicimized youth.

when abusers groom their victims, the victim is often taught that they will be perceived as the one at fault should they ever tell anyone. that the abuser will not be punished as harshly as their victim. that girl just had the message her abuser was probably putting in her head brutally reinforced by being excommunicated from her religion, in a very religious country. can you imagine how much more that will mess up that child?

the people who made the decision to condemn a child and her saviours for doing what was needed to save her life and sanity need to be slapped.



.. this went on a longer rant than i indended. sorry.

But she wasn't excommunicated. Her mother was for setting up the abortion. The girl was not, and can not be excommunicated for it.

ETA
I should also add that this happened back in 2009. Since then, a French Bishop had come out and defended the girl's mother for acting out of fear for the girl's life. I haven't seen any updates as to whether or not she had been recommunicated.

[siead_lietrathua]

But she wasn't excommunicated. Her mother was for setting up the abortion. The girl was not, and can not be excommunicated for it.

to reiterate what i said:

the people who made the decision to condemn a child and her saviours for doing what was needed to save her life and sanity need to be slapped.

i did not say she was excommunicated. i said she was condemned.
people helping her, they were punished. people were punished because of her. that is the message she was shown. her abuser was forgiven. her saviours were punished.
that child had been doomed, condemned, to feeling like she was the cause of pain and ostrazisation to people she cared for, and who stood up for her rights.

edit:

i want to put in here i am not putting the blame on the church as a whole, or religion as a whole. i am putting the blame on the individuals that chose to ignore common sense in this decision.

[Andara Bledin]

But she wasn't excommunicated. Her mother was for setting up the abortion. The girl was not, and can not be excommunicated for it.

As both Siead and I have said, it's really irrelevant that she wasn't excommunicated.

The church officials chose to punish her mother and the doctor that saved her life and not the person who created the entire situation. Basically, they've put their stamp of religious approval on rapists and vilified people whose only goal was to save the life of an innocent 9-year-old victim of rape.

There's no lesson to be learned in all of this that isn't vile.

^-.-^

[crashhelmet]

to reiterate what i said:



i did not say she was excommunicated. i said she was condemned.
people helping her, they were punished. people were punished because of her. that is the message she was shown. her abuser was forgiven. her saviours were punished.
that child had been doomed, condemned, to feeling like she was the cause of pain and ostrazisation to people she cared for, and who stood up for her rights.

edit:

i want to put in here i am not putting the blame on the church as a whole, or religion as a whole. i am putting the blame on the individuals that chose to ignore common sense in this decision.

How was the child condemned by these 3 people? or are you including the rapist in the group? I was confused and that's why I assumed you were saying the child was excommunicated.

[siead_lietrathua]

How was the child condemned by these 3 people? or are you including the rapist in the group? I was confused and that's why I assumed you were saying the child was excommunicated.

again, to re-quote what i wrote the first time:

that child had been doomed, condemned, to feeling like she was the cause of pain and ostrazisation to people she cared for, and who stood up for her rights.

i fail to see how that is hard to understand.

let me give some synonyms then. instead of condemned, let;s go with belittle, chide, come down on, criticize, damn, decry, denounce, denunciate, deprecate, depreciate, disapprove, disparage, doom, find fault with, find guilty, frame, hang something on, judge, knock, lay at one's door, let have it, name, pass sentence on, pin it on, point finger at, pronounce, proscribe, punish, put away, put down, reprehend, reproach, thumbs down on

[Andara Bledin]

How was the child condemned by these 3 people? or are you including the rapist in the group? I was confused and that's why I assumed you were saying the child was excommunicated.

It's the staple of abusers everywhere: "See what you made me do?"

^-.-^

[crashhelmet]

As both Siead and I have said, it's really irrelevant that she wasn't excommunicated.

The church officials chose to punish her mother and the doctor that saved her life and not the person who created the entire situation. Basically, they've put their stamp of religious approval on rapists and vilified people whose only goal was to save the life of an innocent 9-year-old victim of rape.

That's a pretty broad brush you're painting with there. We don't know why they chose not to excommunicate the step-father. We do not know if he has since been excommunicated and it hasn't been reported or we simply haven't found record of it. Again, this happened 3 years ago.

I laid out a possible reason as to how he could be excused. Whether you like it or not, it's a Law within the Church as well as Christianity itself, that those that are incapable of realizing their sins are not held accountable to them.

There's no lesson to be learned in all of this that isn't vile.

^-.-^

But there can be. The Bishop didn't just decide to excommunicate these 3. Church Law excommunicated the 3 of them the moment they carried out the abortion. The Bishop simply declared it.

This could be used as an example to reform or repeal Canon 1398, which makes it an automatic excommunication to procure a completed abortion.

Some Church laws are a lot like secular laws. There is a process to have them changed.

The French Bishop attempted to use Canon 1324 to defend the mother.

The diminution or replacement of the penalty must be applied if the offence was committed by:
...
5) Someone who acts out of grave fear, necessity or serious inconvenience when the act is intrinsically evil or tends to harm souls (if the act committed in these circumstances is not intrinsically evil or harmful to souls, then there is no penalty)
...

If this defense was approved, they would've had the opportunity to defend themselves in a court-like proceeding. At that point, the bishop could've declared whether or not they were justified.