Scientology

[Slytovhand]

CancelMyService - please read over what I said previously. I know that you are expressing your opinion, and it's also true that people have been severely hounded by that particular cult (that calls itself a 'church'), and that some of those people have committed suicide due to the harrassment, intimidation, etc caused by them - but 'scientology' is not limited merely to the doings and goings of the 'church' alone. Being a 'christian' does not automatically mean you are one of the looney fringe that believe in killing yourself and others for a holy cause so you can get to heaven. And yes, there have been christian cults that have done that... does all christianity get thrown into the same boat as you've just thrown all of scientology to the Co$ boat?

BlaqueKatt... what happened to #3??? (which should actually have been number 4). Buddhism is surely "A set of beliefs, values, and practices based on the teachings of a spiritual leader" - yes??

And, because of the 5 different possible meanings of the definition of the word, yes, scientology would be defined as a religion!


Slyt

[AFPheonix]

Color me stupid, but I don't think the church of Scientology has really split into different sects like Christianity has. Furthermore, a lot of the rot comes directly from the top in Scientology, as do the directives to spend money to earn certificates.

Not defending other world religions or anything since a lot of bad shit has gone down in their names too, but at this point the largest ones are so diffuse that it's difficult to blame the actions of a few on the entire thing. Scientology is small enough and new enough that you can, since the few, like Cruise, are poster children for the whole.

[Slytovhand]

APF - sorta. There's the 'church', and then there's a group called the 'Freezone'. Naturally, the church derides the Freezoners.

The Freezone is about keeping what works, and chucking the crap that doesn't - including the attitude.

You're not likely to find the Freezone unless you particularly look for it - it doesn't advertise itself because they'll cop the harrassment, intimidation and other crap from the church - but even more so. Mostly because a stack of the Freezoners were part of the church, saw the bad crap, and got the hell out.

But...yes - the rot comes from the top, and Tom saying some of the things he does (and, of course, some things being taken out of context...) doesn't really help. But, I do note, it's Tom doing a stack of damage, and not other prominent scientologists... John Travolta, Kirstie Alley, the Presleys, Beck, Isaac Hayes, et al. No-one seems to be overly questioning their sanity (Kirstie Alley has stated that it saved her life).


So - all I'm saying is that there is more to the story than becomes well known, and while there is undeniably a stack of bad crap, it's not (dare I use the term) 'fair' to write the whole lot off in one sweeping motion.


No AFP, you're not even remotely stupid - it's just something that tends to remain very very quiet (as per the 'harrassment and intimidation' I mentioned above...)


Slyt

[Boozy]

BlaqueKatt... what happened to #3??? (which should actually have been number 4). Buddhism is surely "A set of beliefs, values, and practices based on the teachings of a spiritual leader" - yes??

No. Buddhism is a philosophy. The "teachings" of the Buddha are not to be taken as doctrine. Buddhists are continually warned to question everything, and to discard any conclusions they may have drawn, including those of the Buddha himself, if the evidence dictates.

Incidentally, there is no such thing as "belief" in Buddhist thought anyways. Beliefs are considered false constructs, and Buddhists would consider it ludicrous to hold them.

Buddhists do perform rituals on occasion. These are holdovers from their roots in Hinduism, and Buddhists find them very helpful as meditation aids. They aren't any more sacred to a Buddhist than a lamp post.

[Slytovhand]

I'm thinking this ought to be topic on it's own, but since it's here....

Isn't that more semantics? After all, the term 'supernatural power' is fairly lively, and depending on who you talk to will determine whether something is really supernatural or not??

A Buddhist may not say they have 'beliefs', but the rest of the planet would say that they do...????Which, to my mind, is similar to a christian saying that pagans don't worship gods, but a version of the devil, but (of course) the pagans are going to disagree....

Thus, the concept of 'belief' fits. Certainly 'values and practices' surely does.

All comes down to definitions... isn't language fun??

Slyt



(edit: yes, I have studied Buddhism....)


(hey - don't you 'believe' that it's actually a philosophy, and not a religion?? hehehe :P)

[wanderingjoe72]

It has been purported that Scientology is the result of a bet between L Ron Hubbard and Arthur C Clarke. Hubbard stated that he could start a religion and scientology is the result. Depending on where you look, this is supported and refuted. One telling also has Clarke starting a religion and then abandoning it as he felt it was getting out of control. Hubbard found that he liked being revered and continued on to build the "church" as it is today. Research it at your leisure and make up your own mind.

I personally haven't seen anything by Tom Cruise in a long time, mainly because his beliefs have turned him into a real asshole.

[Slytovhand]

Yeah, I heard that one WanderingJoe. I go with the idea it's true... but I also like the idea that the Gods of Irony jumped in and helped out a bit (but then, I'm like that...)

Really? Last I heard was Katie was leaving him... and not too soon either! Someone starts forcing their beliefs on you, you leave them in the dirt. (of course, that's all tabloid stuff, so who knows what the truth is?? And if it is, how stupid not to realise that it just might be a problem and not do something about it? There's enough cult girls out there who'd adore being his wife...)

[Flyndaran]

Ok, here I go.
I consider Scientology to be on the absolute edge of how absurd a religion can get before it becomes a loony cult.
Yes, as a born atheist the idea that people can murder eachother, because of how 1+1+1=3 or whether the right of ledearship succession should be heritable or to the best pupil.
The idea of volcano nuking aliens doesn't really set of any laugh alarms that conventional religions don't.

[Slytovhand]

Hmmm... isn't it Anriana's sig line of "The plural of anecdote is not data"??

[IDrinkaRum]

Bart Simpson's voice used to promote a Scientology event.

Nancy Cartwright - the voice of Bart Simpson - is a Scientologist and though the article says she identifies herself as herself, most of the message promoting the event was in Bart's voice.

[Flyndaran]

Bart Simpson's voice used to promote a Scientology event.

Nancy Cartwright - the voice of Bart Simpson - is a Scientologist and though the article says she identifies herself as herself, most of the message promoting the event was in Bart's voice.

That sounds illegal to use someone else's property to promote your own agenda in a non-satirical manner.

[Flyndaran]

Hmmm... isn't it Anriana's sig line of "The plural of anecdote is not data"??

How about the plural of tired expressions is not wisdom?

[Slytovhand]

That sounds illegal to use someone else's property to promote your own agenda in a non-satirical manner.

Yeah, that's got to be a fun one... after all, it is her voice, so 'property' would be interesting.

And it said 'phone message'.. sounds like an even more fun court hearing..

As for my previous post, that was to indicate.."where's your evidence", or "where are you getting your information from", because, as someone who knows scientologists, and read various official (and unofficial) books and documents on the subject, I hear stuff from the general public that seems a stack of hogwash and taken out of context (sort of like saying, eg, Christians worship a dead guy...weird).

(and yeah, I know, you probably do see Xtians that way )

[Flyndaran]

In the same vein it would be my hand drawing Micky Mouse. It doesn't make it any less illegal.
Cartwright does not own the Bart Simpson character, to my knowledge at least.

[Slytovhand]

I don't see the similarity. Nancy Cartwright did the voice - it's not like she's copying someone else's voice when she does it.

If you draw Mickey Mouse, then you are deliberately copying someone else's image.

Not that I have any idea how the law is going to pan out on this, I'm certainly not a lawyer, and not an american litigation lawyer at that.