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  • "So Help Me God"

    I read Fred Clark's post on liberal Christian blog Slacktivist this morning, and I found it very interesting. It's a case where I can see both arguments presented. On the one hand, I can see the argument he referred to (put forward by Friendly Atheist, at least in his reference)

    http://www.patheos.com/blogs/slackti...your-no-by-no/

    That the President of the United States (and anyone else taking office) should not say "So Help Me God" or swear themselves in on anything religious. The United States is, after all, a pluralistic country. It does not take sides in religious debates, the Constitution makes that much clear. To that, the sign of religion in the halls of power can be a little concerning, a little worrying. It can seem exclusionary to use a Bible and say "So Help Me God" at the end of the oath (something that, as Clark points out, is not a required part of the Presidential oath.)

    On the other hand, I see Clark's argument as well. That the United States does not take sides, and thus, there should be no requirement to say "So help me God" or to be sworn in on the Bible, (or the other two mentioned, the Koran and the Baghavad Gita.) But at the same time, most religious people take their faith fairly seriously. And that he would hope, and that I would hope, that they take their job executing the office of President, Representative, or whatever else, just as seriously as they take their faith. To that end, swearing on the Bible, the Baghavad-Gita, and particularly the Koran due to its peculiar place in Islam compared to other holy texts, would be a demonstration of that.

    That the President, and others, are not saying that all Christians must hold their faith. Instead, they are using their faith as an example of how seriously they take the job of President/Congressman/Whatever. The phrase, after all, is not "So help us, God" or even the supposedly-non-sectarian (but in fact frequently exclusionary) "God less America." This is how this one person shows how seriously they take the job.

    That said, these are government officials, and the government cannot establish religion. Perhaps all the Bibles, Korans, and Baghavad-Gitas can be exclusionary, saying this is 'Our' country, not 'Yours.'

    However, I've turned these thoughts over and over in my head, and I can't come to a decisions on which I prefer. That the person not say "So help me God" and use religious paraphenelia, thus keeping from appearing to take sides... Or that they do, to remind themselves, and demonstrate to everyone else, how seriously they take their faith, and how seriously they take thier role in office.

    I feel that the question comes down to whether we focus on this as the person taking the office, or a symbol of the office itself. But I may be way off, and I want to form an opinion and hear other people's thoughts.

    So, I don't really have any opinion on the matter, and I want to hear other people's thoughts.
    "Nam castum esse decet pium poetam
    ipsum, versiculos nihil necessest"

  • #2
    I agree that it should not be a requirement and be completely up to the individual taking the oath. Swearing on religious texts and invoking the name of their supreme being should be permitted, if not encouraged, in the hopes that they will take the oath more seriously.

    Unfortunately...

    The hacks and pundits on the right will have an absolute field day the first time someone doesn't say it. Imagine how much the whole "Obama is a moozlim!!!!" garbage would've blown up if Obama didn't say "So help me God" or "God bless America"?
    Some People Are Alive Only Because It's Illegal To Kill Them.

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    • #3
      My views on this and other religious symbols used by public officials comes down to the point that the freedom of religion applies to everyone. If the president wants to wear a Cross, a Star of David, or nothing at all, that's their prerogative. Likewise, if they wish to swear on a Bible or anything else, that's their choice. And just like everything else, their choice will reflect upon the people. Some will see whatever choice they make as a positive, others as a negative.

      Secularism shouldn't be about making everyone who is elected by the people in denial of their own religious beliefs. Otherwise, you are effectively forcing people out of their religious beliefs all together which I think goes against what freedom of religion is all about. Instead it should be about keeping government from persecuting others' faiths (or lack thereof). One can do that while still observing their own beliefs in public office.

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      • #4
        Originally posted by TheHuckster View Post
        If the president wants to wear a Cross, a Star of David, or nothing at all, that's their prerogative.
        Pass the brainbleach, please! For decency's sake, I don't want to see the president wearing nothing at all.

        Secularism shouldn't be about making everyone who is elected by the people in denial of their own religious beliefs. Otherwise, you are effectively forcing people out of their religious beliefs all together which I think goes against what freedom of religion is all about. Instead it should be about keeping government from persecuting others' faiths (or lack thereof). One can do that while still observing their own beliefs in public office.
        That also goes for the introduction of laws. Let's use a current "hot button" topic - secularism (separation of church and state, ban on establishment of state religion) means that if Congress wants to bring in a ban on abortion, any arguments for/against the ban which have their roots in religious sources should be ignored. After all, if "My God says it's evil" is used to justify bringing in a law, that law is effectively putting the state's weight behind the religion in question. If members want to argue for/against a proposed law, let them use secular arguments.

        Note that, just because some religion's holy book wants to ban something doesn't mean that the ban is not justified - only that the holy book should not be cited as a source for the ban. After all, there are enough secular reasons to prohibit murder and theft that there's no need to cite the 10 commandments.

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        • #5
          There actually is no requirement to swear on a Bible when taking political office, or to add "So help me, God," at the end of the oath. Most politicians swear on a Bible as a tradition, but there is also precedent for swearing on a copy of the Constitution, or the Koran.

          "So help me, God" was not formally written into the oath George Washington took, but added by him spontaneously and most Presidents since have followed the tradition. Since all Presidents have been Christians, there is nothing at all inappropriate to swearing on a bible and using those words. The point is to bind the oath taker to the oath; if you don't swear by something you believe in, the oath has no meaning.
          Good news! Your insurance company says they'll cover you. Unfortunately, they also say it will be with dirt.

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by Panacea View Post

            "So help me, God" was not formally written into the oath George Washington took, but added by him spontaneously and most Presidents since have followed the tradition. Since all Presidents have been Christians, there is nothing at all inappropriate to swearing on a bible and using those words. The point is to bind the oath taker to the oath; if you don't swear by something you believe in, the oath has no meaning.
            Maybe we should dig up their mother's gravestone (not the actual grave) and have them swear on that?

            Personally, I feel that it's up to the President being sworn in. If I became president, I wouldn't be swearing the oath on the Bible, nor adding "So help me, God."

            If my Jewish friend became president, I'd be A-OKAY with him swearing on the Torah (er... right? crap... I'm so tired). As long as I know that this is something that they adhere themselves to, that they swear to, then I'm good.

            If a president tried to take his oath on a copy of Maxim or a dirty mag though... I think I might take issue with it. XD

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            • #7
              It should also be noted that new Presidents often take their oath on historically significant items; I believe Obama was sworn in using Thomas Jefferson's Bible.

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              • #8
                Originally posted by Panacea View Post
                There actually is no requirement to swear on a Bible when taking political office, or to add "So help me, God," at the end of the oath. Most politicians swear on a Bible as a tradition, but there is also precedent for swearing on a copy of the Constitution, or the Koran.

                "So help me, God" was not formally written into the oath George Washington took, but added by him spontaneously and most Presidents since have followed the tradition. Since all Presidents have been Christians, there is nothing at all inappropriate to swearing on a bible and using those words. The point is to bind the oath taker to the oath; if you don't swear by something you believe in, the oath has no meaning.
                I think the problem is that at this point, it would practically be political suicide to swear on anything other than the Bible (or nothing at all). Can you imagine the uproar if someone was elected president (or hell, even mayor), and then openly admitted to being an Atheist? People would be outraged. "I DON'T WANT SOME HEATHEN REPRESENTING ME!"

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                • #9
                  Jesse Ventura (Former Minnesota governor and WWF Champion, though not concurrently) and Pete Stark (California's 13th district) were both atheists, and Stark's been in office for a couple decades. He's going out now, though.

                  I think that there's one coming in from... Uh...Arizona?
                  "Nam castum esse decet pium poetam
                  ipsum, versiculos nihil necessest"

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                  • #10
                    Would it be wrong to be sworn in on all religious documents? It'd probably be rather heavy, at any rate, and now I'm picturing an argument about what order said documents would be placed in.
                    "I take it your health insurance doesn't cover acts of pussy."

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                    • #11
                      Originally posted by AdminAssistant View Post
                      It should also be noted that new Presidents often take their oath on historically significant items; I believe Obama was sworn in using Thomas Jefferson's Bible.
                      Abraham Lincoln's actually. Obama is a big Lincoln fanboy.

                      Although there would be some irony in a President wearing in on a Jefferson Bible. Jefferson clipped out the stuff he didn't like, which amounted to just about everything but the sayings of Jesus.

                      Originally posted by Seifer View Post
                      I think the problem is that at this point, it would practically be political suicide to swear on anything other than the Bible (or nothing at all). Can you imagine the uproar if someone was elected president (or hell, even mayor), and then openly admitted to being an Atheist? People would be outraged. "I DON'T WANT SOME HEATHEN REPRESENTING ME!"
                      It would be political suicide. However, atheists usually are pretty open about it these days, and they are running for and winning political office. Eventually we will have an Atheist president. And a Muslim president. And a Jewish president.

                      And they'll swear on what they choose to swear on. And I'm OK with that.

                      Originally posted by Bloodsoul View Post
                      Would it be wrong to be sworn in on all religious documents? It'd probably be rather heavy, at any rate, and now I'm picturing an argument about what order said documents would be placed in.
                      That would complicate the issue rather than solve it. Not that I think there is anything that needs to be solved.
                      Good news! Your insurance company says they'll cover you. Unfortunately, they also say it will be with dirt.

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                      • #12
                        Trying to think about what an Atheist or Agnostic would swear in on... I'd probably try to have my swearing-in (if I ever got elected to public office, which is unlikely) done on a single-volume edition of Lord of the Rings.

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                        • #13
                          Aristotle's Poetics, for me.

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                          • #14
                            Originally posted by AdminAssistant View Post
                            It should also be noted that new Presidents often take their oath on historically significant items; I believe Obama was sworn in using Thomas Jefferson's Bible.
                            You might be thinking of Keith Ellison, a Muslim Congressman who took his oath swearing on Jefferson's copy of the Koran.

                            Originally posted by Hyena Dandy View Post
                            Jesse Ventura (Former Minnesota governor and WWF Champion, though not concurrently) and Pete Stark (California's 13th district) were both atheists, and Stark's been in office for a couple decades. He's going out now, though.

                            I think that there's one coming in from... Uh...Arizona?
                            Yup, Arizona. Kyrsten Sinema is Atheist (Some sites refer to her as non-theist) and also openly bisexual.
                            Some People Are Alive Only Because It's Illegal To Kill Them.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Nekojin View Post
                              Trying to think about what an Atheist or Agnostic would swear in on... I'd probably try to have my swearing-in (if I ever got elected to public office, which is unlikely) done on a single-volume edition of Lord of the Rings.
                              If they swore on something, I'd prefer it be the Constitution or the Declaration of Independence. Something with meaning other than "Ha Ha!! It's Not a Bible!"
                              Some People Are Alive Only Because It's Illegal To Kill Them.

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