"So Help Me God"

[AmbrosiaWriter]

If they swore on something, I'd prefer it be the Constitution or the Declaration of Independence. Something with meaning other than "Ha Ha!! It's Not a Bible!"

Machiavelli's, The Prince?

[Nekojin]

If they swore on something, I'd prefer it be the Constitution or the Declaration of Independence. Something with meaning other than "Ha Ha!! It's Not a Bible!"

Good point.

[Panacea]

Trying to think about what an Atheist or Agnostic would swear in on... I'd probably try to have my swearing-in (if I ever got elected to public office, which is unlikely) done on a single-volume edition of Lord of the Rings.

The Constitution, no question. I want it to be a document that is meaningful to the electorate, not enjoy a fantasy moment.

[HYHYBT]

I'd swear, but not ON anything.

[Andrew B]

Don't forget that W.H. Taft was sworn in on a book of law. The swearing in is on something you hold sacred after all.

[Nyoibo]

Trying to think about what an Atheist or Agnostic would swear in on... I'd probably try to have my swearing-in (if I ever got elected to public office, which is unlikely) done on a single-volume edition of Lord of the Rings.

I know in court that if it isn't a religious tome then a statutory declaration is used.

[Gravekeeper]

The President should have to swear a blood oath on the Constitution on the night of a full moon while congress chants the sacred rites to soul forge them together. So he and the Constitution are one. If any harm comes to the parchment, so too will it come to the President.

The Constitution should be the President's Horcrux.

[Andara Bledin]

The Constitution should be the President's Horcrux.

Your ideas are intriguing to me and I wish to subscribe to your newsletter.

^-.-^

[Mytical]

The fact is, as much as religious freedom is touted..as much as our founding fathers FOUGHT for religious freedom..America has been, and is, a Christian nation. One nation, Under God. In God we Trust. 10 commandments in school. Etc, etc. People can deny it all they want, they can look the other way and try not to see it..and yes it has been less prelivent (spelling) as time goes on..but it is true.

See America was supposed to be all about religious freedom..ALL religions. Two words...Salem Witch Trials..which yes was less about 'witches' and more about political and personal grudges. Still, if true religious freedom existed, the witch trials never would have.

You don't hear people trying to get the Torah into schools, or the Koran..it is always some Christian belief that is being pushed. I respect all faiths, but I also say what I think. Simple fact is, America has been .. and for the most part still is..a Christian nation. Not a bad thing, because there are some good things in Christianity. It's the wack jobs that make it hard to swallow. Most, if not all, of the recent Presidents have had to at least SEEM Christian. If not, then not only will they not get another term..their whole party will suffer for some time to come.

One day, we will evolve. Things like sexuality, religion, sex, age, etc will not mean a dang thing. That day is not today, and tomorrow currently is not looking any better. I will stop rambling now...

[crashhelmet]

The fact is, as much as religious freedom is touted..as much as our founding fathers FOUGHT for religious freedom..America has been, and is, a Christian nation. One nation, Under God. In God we Trust. 10 commandments in school. Etc, etc. People can deny it all they want, they can look the other way and try not to see it..and yes it has been less prelivent (spelling) as time goes on..but it is true.

See America was supposed to be all about religious freedom..ALL religions. Two words...Salem Witch Trials..which yes was less about 'witches' and more about political and personal grudges. Still, if true religious freedom existed, the witch trials never would have.

You don't hear people trying to get the Torah into schools, or the Koran..it is always some Christian belief that is being pushed. I respect all faiths, but I also say what I think. Simple fact is, America has been .. and for the most part still is..a Christian nation. Not a bad thing, because there are some good things in Christianity. It's the wack jobs that make it hard to swallow. Most, if not all, of the recent Presidents have had to at least SEEM Christian. If not, then not only will they not get another term..their whole party will suffer for some time to come.

One day, we will evolve. Things like sexuality, religion, sex, age, etc will not mean a dang thing. That day is not today, and tomorrow currently is not looking any better. I will stop rambling now...

There's a difference between being a Christian Nation and a nation dominated by Christianity

[Mytical]

Not in this case, or not really. Let me explain. For a long time..a really long time..the concept of separating church and state was good on paper, but really was not practiced. The church was a christian church also. I am going to try to explain without rambling, as I tend to do, so you'll have to look over me somewhat.

Christianity was the major and driving force for a long time. A really long time. Prayer in school, etc..all the other religions were tolerated, but Christianity ruled the day in America. As I said, it is getting less and less so..BUT it is still a very powerful and driving force. Christianity influenced just about everything. On paper church and state was separate, but it really wasn't. Laws..even every day life here in America has shadings of the Christian faith over it. Why do you think it has been so difficult to legalize gay marriage? Even some Christians think it should be legal, but the church has dug it's heels in and said 'No'..and progress has been really really slow because of it. The fact it still has that much power, even today, speaks of how much true power it had at one time.

So yes there is a difference, but not in this case..though that is still changing. Will there be a difference one day? I hope. Because this country was SUPPOSED to be founded on freedom for all. I just wish that it was the case.

[Panacea]

The fact is, as much as religious freedom is touted..as much as our founding fathers FOUGHT for religious freedom..America has been, and is, a Christian nation. <snip>
You don't hear people trying to get the Torah into schools, or the Koran..it is always some Christian belief that is being pushed. <snip> Most, if not all, of the recent Presidents have had to at least SEEM Christian. If not, then not only will they not get another term..their whole party will suffer for some time to come.

I see where you're going with this Mytical. But I think I need to give a bit of a history refresher here.

Some of the Founders were very religious. Some were not. A variety of faiths were involved: Quakers, Puritans, Anglicans, Catholics, and Jews. All these groups knew from all too recent bloody history what happens when the church is the state. The English Civil War was not all that far in the past. Religious persecution at home was the reason the Catholics, Puritans, Quakers, and Jews immigrated to the colonies in the first place (Maryland and Pennsylvania were specifically founded as havens for Catholics and Quakers respectively).

During the period of the Roundheads, Puritan factions in Maryland seized control of the General Assembly and began persecuting Catholics.

The Founders wanted to prevent future issues like these in the new United States. That's why the First Amendment was written. While many of the Founders were Christian, it was the ideals of Enlightenment thinkers like John Locke that shaped the Constitution and the Bill of Rights, not Christianity.

That began to change during the 2nd Great Awakening in the 1830's. Religious fervor swept the country and hasn't really gone away since.

However, we're still not a Christian nation. That's just far right wing propaganda. More and more people self identify as "nones" as in no religious preference (though possibly from a religious tradition). More people are atheists. A lot of what we see is the last gasp of fearful people who see the 1950's slipping away for ever.

[Mytical]

You are correct. Doing the math though, religious fever (paraphrasing from you, hope you don't mind) still has been around for the majority of our 300 years. I am about as far left as you can get without being a hippy, but when you look at how things have went for the most part..

Christianity has been the most vocal of the religions (in whatever form Christianity takes), and a lot of our (looks for the words, can't find them) I want to say leaning but that is not quite what I mean..has been very Christian in nature. No gay marriage, anti-abortion laws, etc .. stem from a mostly Christian view. Again, not that this is a bad thing, I respect the religion even if not everybody who practices it.

I still have to disagree that we are not a Christian nation however. One nation, Under God. In God We Trust. Just look at some of our documents and our money. I agree the landscape is changing, and that the silent majority is finally making headway..but I don't think we are there yet. It's going to be an uphill battle.

[AmbrosiaWriter]

I still have to disagree that we are not a Christian nation however. One nation, Under God. In God We Trust.

I'm going to put out there that we haven't changed these things so far is because no one wants to spend the money to have to push to change all these things right now. It's not worth it because it's such a minor issue.

Two little sayings, one of which is never really heard anymore once you get out of public school, and the other that no one pays attention to, does not a Christian nation make.

A Christian nation implies a foundation on Christianity and a following of that faith in everything we do in terms of government. We don't do that.

Also, on the back of our one dollar bill is a pyramid. Does that mean we are an Egyptian nation? Or a Freemason nation -the All Seeing Eye - ?

Those little things your pointing out are more based on a tradition that is not worth putting for funds and effort to changing rather than being indications that we are a Christian Nation.

[Nekojin]

It's also worth mentioning that "In God We Trust" was only added to the currency in 1956, replacing the previous E Pluribus Unum ("Out of many, one"). Similarly, "under God" was added to the Pledge of Allegiance in 1954.

Both of these were a result of the anti-Communist panic ("The Red Scare") that started around 1920, and peaked with McCarthyism. As people were terrified of being labeled Communists, and Communism was linked (speciously) with Atheism, one of the most visible ways to prove that you weren't a Communist was to show that you were, in fact, religious. Prior to McCathyism, there was considerable friction between the various Christian sects, but with the imagined threat of Atheist Communists coming for us, the various Christian sects unconsciously bonded together in tribalistic brotherhood against the Other being presented for them to oppose.

That's why, today, it seems like the Christian religions are this monolithic, unstoppable wave. But there's still friction between the sects - it just goes on behind the scenes these days. The Catholic hierarchy still hates Protestants, and vice versa, and all of them still view each other as petty pretenders and poachers*. They've just gotten polite enough to keep the feud out of public eyes.

* The true believers view other religions as pretenders. The opportunistic manipulators view other religions as poachers.