Consequences Of Lack Of Free Will

[Pedersen]

So, over here, I talk about the lack of free will in the event of a monotheistic religion where god is omniscient, omnipotent, and the creator of the universe.

Here, I'd like to talk about the consequences of what this means.

If there is no answer to that conundrum that allows for humanity to have free will, then god becomes a right bastard.

Why? According to these various religions, there are rewards for following a good life, and punishments for leading a bad life. Commonly, the reward is called heaven, and the punishment is called hell.

Accompanying the promise of heaven/hell is a list of things that are considered bad by the religion in question, and other things that are considered good.

Common to the "bad" list: homosexuality, murder, rape, torture.
Common to the "good list": believing fully in that god and that god's prophet of choice, being good to the people around you, converting them to follow that god, self-sacrifice of some variety.

Now, without free will, that means that people who do things on the bad list are unable to choose not to do them. That is to say that, quite literally, god made them do it. These people, having done something on the bad list, are now condemned to the appropriate punishment for that religion for doing something that they could not avoid doing.

Furthermore, those who do not do things on the bad list were incapable of doing those things, because god didn't let them.

Ergo, god plays favorites. Before you're born, he's decided whether or not to like you, and if he doesn't, he's going to make you do bad things and then use that to justify punishing you for all eternity.

That rather makes him a right bastard, don't you think?

[BlaqueKatt]

Stay out of my brain please?


Seriously-I was actually thinking along these lines.

even if there is "free Will" there isn't, as you are punished for exercising it.

it's like giving a child(humans) a candy bar(free will) and telling them they can't eat it(you exercise it and don't do what I want you to you go to hell).


Seems rather controlling to me-I give you the option to do whatever you want but if you don't do what I want you to will be punished forever-that is being a right bastard actually.

[Pedersen]

Stay out of my brain please?

Nah, it's warm and cozy in here. A bit deranged for my liking, but without a brain of my own to stay in, I've got to use someone else's. Now, to work on those squatter's rights...

even if there is "free Will" there isn't, as you are punished for exercising it.

Actually, we have to disagree here. If you have an actual choice (debatable, don't forget my other thread), then you have it.

Free will does not mean there won't be consequences for making a choice. It only means that you actually have one. And the consequences can be both good and bad.

Seems rather controlling to me-I give you the option to do whatever you want but if you don't do what I want you to will be punished forever-that is being a right bastard actually.

Well, now that part is true. Of course, that requires that you have free will, which I'm not at all sure I agree that we have.

[Greenday]

Supposing everything is God's will means people can't take responsibility for their actions. Which is why I will never believe it.

[Pedersen]

Tehre is something wrong with the concept of free will, make no mistake. I'm not even sure it actually exists, personally.

However, my goal here was not to debate the very existence of it. I'm pretty sure there's another thread about that, though I'm not finding it right now. No, my goal here is to find out what the consequences of it failing to exist would be, theologically and philosophically.

Though you do raise an interesting corollary: If there is no such thing as free will, can we actually punish wrongdoers? I say we can, though for a different reason than you might expect.

Even if all of life is predetermined, we have the illusion of free will. This means that, somewhere in our brains, there exists a mechanism which is used to allow our consciousness the ability to perform an action we call "making a choice".

Furthermore, in order for us to be able to function in our day to day lives, we need to function as if we have free will, illusion or not. To fail to do so would mean the downfall of man. All of the dregs of society would be able to rise up and do anything at all, and say "Hey, I have no choice in the matter. No free will, remember?" Our society would be destroyed in fairly short order.

No, illusion or not, we must continue to act as though we have free will.

Now, that mechanism I mentioned above uses a set of inputs to perform the choice making process. Part of those inputs includes the consequences of getting caught. If there are no consequences, that process has significantly less incentive to do the right thing. Instead, it can run loose and do anything that comes in as a possibility. There's that downfall of man I mentioned above. Fair or not, we have to continue to punish those that violate whatever norms, mores, and laws, just to try to keep society functioning.

There is, however, another consequence of the lack of free will that has to be considered: Namely, the fact that punishing someone is inherently unfair. The long term consequence here is that punishments must change such that the elements of society which would violate those codes no longer wish to violate them. And, if they do, their punishment must be, instead of actual punishment, some form of reprogramming to nullify the desires that would allow them to violate those codes.

Yes, I do know how horrible that sounds. But that becomes the only ethical thing to do.

[lordlundar]

Pederson, I SO want you to go into a christian fundie group and say that. Record the results please.

[Pedersen]

And here I thought I was at least somewhat liked. Now I find you're wanting to make me the subject of a Fox special "When Fundies ATTACK!"

[Flyndaran]

And here I thought I was at least somewhat liked. Now I find you're wanting to make me the subject of a Fox special "When Fundies ATTACK!"

But that's not "special". That's simply par for the course.

[lordlundar]

And here I thought I was at least somewhat liked. Now I find you're wanting to make me the subject of a Fox special "When Fundies ATTACK!"

nah, nothing like that. I just wanna see what will happen.

[Flyndaran]

nah, nothing like that. I just wanna see what will happen.

Same thing as when you ask how an omnipotent all caring god created evil in the first place, natural disasters, and birth defects?
A punch to the face and excommunication?

[Slytovhand]

some form of reprogramming to nullify the desires that would allow them to violate those codes

Umm - I thought that's what the idea of punishment was?? But because we aren't yet getting too far into their brains, it means a physical variant.

Besides - your whole last line goes completely against your argument... just as the criminal is unable to have a 'choice' in what they do, neither does the government in it's 'choice' of punishment.

Now - I am presuming that the concept of 'free will' is metaphysical? (I know - that might sound like a strange question, but....) If you get inside someone's head and mess with it - physically changing the thought processes so that they now enact on a different stimulus/response system.... what does that say about our concept of free will? (probably - "oh, that was always going to happen...)


(Freewill meets Westboro.... Pedersen in violent attack.... just try to tell them that they had no 'choice' but to be gay, cos God created them that way )

[Pedersen]

Umm - I thought that's what the idea of punishment was?? But because we aren't yet getting too far into their brains, it means a physical variant.

Actually, I meant literal reprogramming. Either through surgery or some other (as yet unknown) mechanism. Attach to their brain, change how signals are processed, and therefore change the output. If we do manage to disprove the existence of free will, that will be some very interesting times.

And I'm not sure how the courts can handle that as yet.

Besides - your whole last line goes completely against your argument... just as the criminal is unable to have a 'choice' in what they do, neither does the government in it's 'choice' of punishment.

You are correct. However, I'm stating that, whether free will exists or not, we have to act like it does. Doing so changes the inputs the brain uses for whatever choices it will make, which results in (hopefully) better outputs.

And if we were to try to remove those inputs, the consequences would be disastrous. Of course, if we do disprove the existence of free will, what happens after that will be some badness on an epic scale. I'm not sure that humanity will manage to survive that.

Now - I am presuming that the concept of 'free will' is metaphysical? (I know - that might sound like a strange question, but....) If you get inside someone's head and mess with it - physically changing the thought processes so that they now enact on a different stimulus/response system.... what does that say about our concept of free will? (probably - "oh, that was always going to happen...)

Actually, that's exactly what we'll have to say. If there is no free will, then what will happen next is exactly that sort of thing. All in all, it will be seriously ugly. And part of the reason for that will be the "Well, I couldn't stop myself."

(Freewill meets Westboro.... Pedersen in violent attack.... just try to tell them that they had no 'choice' but to be gay, cos God created them that way )

Well, if there is no free will, then they will be unable to accept that idea from me, since they're wired to believe differently.

Of course, my wiring says to stay well away from those assholes, so I'm not likely to be attacked by them anyway

[Difdi]

It can be argued that God (in the Christian/Islamic sense) is in fact an evil being, if the fundamentalist ideas of what causes you to go to Hell are accurate. I don't choose to believe this way, but since all I can do is take it on faith, the possibility does exist.

If God is my Maker, and all that I am is His Work, then any flaws in that Making are His, not mine. If He is perfect, then those flaws are deliberate. If I try to be good, and fail due to those flaws, and that failure damns me, then free will does not exist except as a sick joke. If free will does not exist, then one is blessed or damned from the moment of Creation, and nothing one can do or will ever do matters even the tiniest bit.

Blaming oneself for all failures, and thanking God for all successes is equally nonsensical. If God is my Maker, then He is at least complicit in both those flaws and those strengths. But if it is my choice, my free will to try to succeed, then I am also partially or even wholly to "blame" for those successes, as much as I am to blame for my failures. Anything less is a denial of responsibility and renders free will meaningless.

If I live my life as best I can, trying to succeed and falling prey to my flaws, even if I always try but never succeed, then I will find my way to Heaven...or the entire game was rigged from the start, and I'll join the good guys in Hell gladly, since opposing Evil is one of the ways in which I try to be Good.

Good, after all, will not damn me to Hell for the flaws my Maker deliberately or not worked into His Creation.