My spirit is troubled..

[Mytical]

Recently I had a dream, and it has caused my spirit to be a bit troubled. The dream is posted here http://www.customerssuck.com/board/s...ad.php?t=95171 my second post in the thread.

The thing is, I do believe in god. I just do not believe in the christian, or muslim, or jewish..god. I believe in my heart they are one in the same, and that he sends his message how the people of the area are best able to receive it..well I say he..but it is more he/she. I am not convinced god is either sex..if he/she has any sex at all.

I believe that the bible, koran, etc are just books..and that man wrote them..and I believe each message has been corrupted by man. To fit their agenda..that god..doesn't care who you love, as long as you love..that he/she doesn't care what you call him/her..and that each person has god in their heart..even if they choose not to listen to him/her.

I believe that there is a intelligence out there that has guided everything..but not necessarily intelligent design..its a lot more complicated then that. I don't think God knows how things will turn out..ie though he/she knows everything..they do not know the future..but knows what happens the instant it happens. It is as much a surprise to them as it is to us. That god does not want 'robots' so does not control us, and weeps when we do bad things, and when bad things happen to us..but KNOWS that in order to appreciate the good..we have to experience the bad.

I am rambling, but what it boils down to is..I know I am a powerful preacher..I've seen what effect my words have on others..but I am not a Christian..nor will I ever be. So I am having a hard time reconciling my belief with the desire to preach..since I am pretty sure NOBODY believes as I do...nor do I really want to try to convince them....it is a mess and so is my mind.

[Teysa]

This may sound a bit surprising coming from me, since I am a Christian, but it's not the labels that are important. It's what's in your heart. The impression I got from your dream is that you are being called to preach but you're letting doubts and fears block you.

I don't think your beliefs are as far from Christianity as you think. We're called to love one another, even the ones who aren't particularly lovable. I believe God can manifest as either male or female, after all being spirit, God is not limited by our gender designations. I agree that God doesn't care what we call Him with the caveat that we should still be respectful. (I use the masculine pronoun not because I think it's the only right one, but because it's what I'm used to.)

What you could do, is type up some potential sermons on here and let us read them. While we can be a contentious lot at times, at least we won't throw any rocks at you.

As an aside, have you ever read the Joshua books by Joseph Girzone? They tell about what might happen if Jesus were to walk the earth today. I think you'd be interested in His views on modern day Christianity and religion in general

[HYHYBT]

...and I believe each message has been corrupted by man.

For fun, next time someone tells you that can't be, throw Jeremiah 8:8 at them.

[Mytical]

@Tesya
I would love to, but it would have to be when the spirit moves me. By that I mean that I don't think practicing and repeating some scripture is the spirit of what god would want from a preacher. It has to be from the heart. I mean no disrespect to any preacher, but any parrot can step up and regurgitate something they read..and some preachers can do that with such power that it moves people. To me, that is ok for some..but it is not for me. When the words come, I speak them. Heh has gotten me in a lot of trouble in life. Since I have almost no brain to mouth filter. If I think something I say it.

My heart aches when I see somebody like the Westboro Church holding signs that say God Hates <insert x>..God is incapable of hate. It would be as foreign to god as god is to us. When somebody kills 'in gods name', it hurts almost as much as a physical wound to me. God would never want somebody harmed in his/her name. I feel like I want to try to explain to the haters and the people who bring violence in gods name that it doesn't matter what some book written BY MAN says. That if god is about love, then let him be about love. I don't mean the whole make love not war thing, because God I think understands about standing up for oneself, but that not to have hate in your heart for anybody. If somebody tries to harm you or yours, that it is ok to defend yourself..but to have a heavy heart if you have to harm any. That you can be strong in your body and mind, but gentle in your ways.

That loving is not weakness, but strength..for it is easy to hate one's enemy..hard to love them while keeping them from harming you and yours..eh there I go again..rambling..it happens a lot *laughs*..I will get off my soapbox for now.

[Seifer]

I felt the same way you did when I was in high school. I am now an atheist.

The way I see it, it all boils down to this:

If God guides everything (but doesn't know how everything will turn out), gives everyone complete freedom, and also allows both good and bad things to happen to us (because God can't control it), then why even believe in a God? What I've listed above all boils down to random chance, which is just that: chance. It has nothing to do with God or any other mythical being "helping" us along in life. You could literally apply those aspects to anything - the "universe", God, the all-knowing space dragon, etc.

If everything God does simply boils down to chance, what's the point? I came to the final conclusion that there is none. It's simply a desperate attempt to hang onto faith when there is absolutely no reason or evidence to do so.

[Mytical]

For awhile I felt the exact same way, but then I was not so sure. I looked at all the miracles around us, and thought..is it all chance? Cancer victims learning that though medicine had given up on them, that there was absolutely nothing could be done..then getting better. At life..though it seems so mundane..seeing a small child in a persons arm..and knowing that it was a miracle. That the joy and wonder that seems so common place, if you really look for it, is just .. chance? No..I don't think so.

I've been in too many moments in time that I should not have been here. That I should have died..and somehow didn't..to think it chance. I've looked down from a school bus..seen that two wheels were NOT touching anything (ie had went off of the road) and yet..am still here. I died at least twice, and yet I am still here. I've felt I should turn left when I needed to turn right, and when I turned left looked right, and seen a vehicle pass through where I've would have been standing if I had turned right. I don't think I am anything special..so therefore other every day miracles happen all the time..we just no longer look for them or pay attention to them.

[Gravekeeper]

This is a bit of a tricky one. Dreams are a dubious force of guidance. For they often reflect internal thoughts and beliefs you already held, whether you realise it or not. I've had similar revelation tye dreams in both my young stupid new age wiccan phase and in my more mature latter Buddhist phase. Each reflecting the belief system I held at the time. Dreams spring from internal, not external forces.

While I will admit that about once a year or so for the last 3 years I have had an acutely peculiar dream I always remember in vivid clarity. But it was never religious in nature. Nor spurning me towards anything. I don't really talk about them with anyone save close friends though, because it creeps them out. -.-

[Gravekeeper]

For awhile I felt the exact same way, but then I was not so sure. I looked at all the miracles around us, and thought..is it all chance? Cancer victims learning that though medicine had given up on them, that there was absolutely nothing could be done..then getting better. At life..though it seems so mundane..seeing a small child in a persons arm..and knowing that it was a miracle. That the joy and wonder that seems so common place, if you really look for it, is just .. chance? No..I don't think so.

Chance is just a word for a system too complex for our intelligence to predict the result of. Rolling a pair of dice seems like chance. But if one were intelligent enough to be able to observe and calculate the physical forces of the dice. How hard they were thrown, at what angle, from how high, etc, one could successfully determine the outcome.

The universe is no different. A "miracle" is merely something statistically improbable. We call it a miracle because it rarely occurs, but statistically speaking it has to occur at least sometimes and if we were intelligent enough to observe and calculate all of the factors involved we could predict when it would and would not occur.

The universe is a machine that creates life. How or why is a question we are not yet capable of answering. However, the machine runs on its own rules and those rules are not being violated in any way by anything. They don't need to be, for they are already serving their purpose in giving rise to a complex universe and creating life within it.

What started the machine is certainly a matter of debate. Whose driving the machine is not. No one is driving it. No one needs to drive it. It is performing its function perfectly. But we fill in the blanks of what we don't yet understand about it with all manner of beliefs. We evolved the capacity to create gods when we evolved the capacity to understand one another. Ironically enough. When we evolved to imagine what another is feeling or thinking, we also evolved the ability to concieve of a being that can feel or think without evidence of its existence.

Right, stop rambling before I present an entire thesis on the nature of reality. -.-

[Racket_Man]

being slightly comical here but

"GOD uses a random number generator"

[Mytical]

Which brings us to another crux in the matter. I respect just about every view there is out there. That everything is just random chance, its just that the universe is so big and that it has been around so long..that anything is quite possible with just random chance..and no guiding intelligence. I see that side of it, and I can relate. It is entirely possible that this is the case.

I understand when people see terrible things happen, and question why any loving intelligent higher being would allow it to happen. I've been there. I've asked that very same question many times.

I don't have the answers, I honestly don't..and I won't lie and say I do. All I can rely on is what I've seen. What I've experienced..even when I can not prove to ANYBODY that I've been through them. I can not hope to convince people of it, because I've doubted my own sanity.

I've seen and talked to spirits, I've felt things and seen things I couldn't hope to understand let alone explain. I also know that I can not prove one word of it. That it is not something that happens on demand. So I don't try to convince anybody of it. I fully respect people who do not think there is anything else out there. For me, even I am not 100% positive, but I also like to think that it is not all for nothing. That this life, is not all there is.

[Nekojin]

The universe is no different. A "miracle" is merely something statistically improbable. We call it a miracle because it rarely occurs, but statistically speaking it has to occur at least sometimes and if we were intelligent enough to observe and calculate all of the factors involved we could predict when it would and would not occur.

Statistically improbable events with good outcomes are called "miracles." Statistically improbable events with bad outcomes are called "tragedies." It seems a bit hypocritical to me to only attribute the good outcomes to God's Will. Sort of a mental thumb on the scale, if you will.

With regard to Preaching - I'm of the opinion that you only really have a justified "right" to preach to people who are interested in listening. If you're trying to preach at those who don't agree and don't believe, you run a very real risk of being a nuisance, if not outright disturbing the peace.

[Hyena Dandy]

Have you considered Unitarian Universalism?

It's a church, and a lot of people there believe kind of in a god or godlike being. But at the same time, they take ministers from many different faiths.

[crashhelmet]

I felt the same way you did when I was in high school. I am now an atheist.

The way I see it, it all boils down to this:

If God guides everything (but doesn't know how everything will turn out), gives everyone complete freedom, and also allows both good and bad things to happen to us (because God can't control it), then why even believe in a God? What I've listed above all boils down to random chance, which is just that: chance. It has nothing to do with God or any other mythical being "helping" us along in life. You could literally apply those aspects to anything - the "universe", God, the all-knowing space dragon, etc.

If everything God does simply boils down to chance, what's the point? I came to the final conclusion that there is none. It's simply a desperate attempt to hang onto faith when there is absolutely no reason or evidence to do so.

Your justification almost sounds selfish. God doesn't control things to a way that you don't want, so you say "why believe?".

As discussed in other threads, Free Will means that he lets things happen so that we can have Free Will. Not that he can or can't control them. Once he begins controlling things, we have no Free Will.

I'll be one of the first to say that if it wasn't for bad luck, I wouldn't have any at all, but there are checks and balances to everything in this life. We have criminals and we have law enforcement. We have the sick and we have doctors. There are Christians, like myself, that believe Science and Religion can coexist. That science is us figuring out how God made the Universe.

The tragedies that Nekojin pointed out could possibly be the fault of man. Global warming, fracking, mining, drilling, etc could be causing "chaos" that results in storms, earthquakes, tsunamis, floods, etc.

Was 9/11 God's fault or those responsible that were supposed to be preventing something like that from happening? Does the existence of God suddenly justify and excuse their failures?

[Panacea]

For fun, next time someone tells you that can't be, throw Jeremiah 8:8 at them.

Good one. I love it

If God guides everything (but doesn't know how everything will turn out), gives everyone complete freedom, and also allows both good and bad things to happen to us (because God can't control it), then why even believe in a God?

This is a common error that atheists make. The assumption is that if God is all powerful (He is), all knowing (he is), and everywhere (he is) that God not only can but should prevent bad things from ever happening to us, and that since He doesn't do this, then He doesn't exist and therefore we need not worship him.

What's forgotten is the concept of original sin. Original sin isn't that Eve ate the apple and convinced Adam to do the same, therefore we are being punished by God. Original sin is about the loss of innocence that came about when Adam and Eve disobeyed God, then tried to hide their disobedience from Him. Because they lost their innocence, the consequences of their decision lies with everyone.

Free will means we have to accept the consequences of our choices. God isn't there to bail us out of the messes we ourselves create. He's there to guide us to right choices and right action; to urge us to move back towards him by living the kind of life he wants us to live; a life that's been outlined for us by the prophets, and by Jesus.

However, it's our own choice whether or not to follow those guidelines, and no one does it perfectly.

Understanding why God created us in the first place, and what His ultimate goals are for mankind are beyond our understanding. The Scriptures do not discuss it. However, God acts very much like any parent would; guiding and nurturing his creation, but allowing them the freedom to learn and grow on their own--much like any parent has to do with a child. The child must be allowed to fail, must be allowed to make mistakes or learning will never take place.

Miracles are a hard concept to understand, since God does not perform them as openly as he did since the time of Jesus and the Apostles. There are those who believe miracles happen. Why they happen, and when is another mystery. It can seem like God is playing favorites, but really he is not. Instead he is responding to the appeals for intercession that come to him from the faithful. Sometimes the answer is no. Sometimes the answer is yes.

If everything God does simply boils down to chance, what's the point? I came to the final conclusion that there is none. It's simply a desperate attempt to hang onto faith when there is absolutely no reason or evidence to do so.

Nothing God does boils down to chance. The very statement is contradictory; if God does something it is not chance. If I do something, it is not chance. It is action (or sometimes, the failure or refusal to act).

The reason to believe in God is because of the presence He makes in your life. Some people have a hard time (for a variety of reasons) hearing God's call. Or, they willfully ignore it because they are angry with God (I see this a lot in atheists: "What has God done for me," as if God owes them something).

I was an agnostic for many years; I really wasn't sure if God existed or not, though I did feel a pull towards spirituality, but I was definitely turned off by fundamentalist Christianity. I recall discussing religion with a friend who said, "Haven't you ever had a spiritual experience?" I told her I had not, and it was true. I hadn't. I didn't have one for five or six years after that conversation. The experience happened, it was unexpected, but it was profound and it removed all doubt. It's very hard to explain. Since then I've talked regularly to God, and received answers to prayers, appeals, and questions. I haven't always liked the answers . . . but I did get them. However, the relationship has grown and is very satisfying. I don't ask God to solve my problems for me anymore. I solve them on my own . . . and can sense His support in those efforts, which tides me through the rough patches in my life.

Which brings us to another crux in the matter. I respect just about every view there is out there. That everything is just random chance, its just that the universe is so big and that it has been around so long..that anything is quite possible with just random chance..and no guiding intelligence. I see that side of it, and I can relate. It is entirely possible that this is the case.

It's fine to relate to and appreciate the disparate points of view, and approaches to spirituality. That's the core essence of eucimenicalism, which is something leaders in several of the world's major religions: Judaism, Islam, and Christianity among others, are attempting to do.

But if you're going to be a person of faith, you have to define what that faith is, especially if your goal is to be a preacher. If you have to have a core message that you are preaching. For a Christian, that's spreading the Good News of Jesus Christ. If you're not doing that, you're not a Christian. If you don't believe there is a guiding intelligence it really sounds more like metaphysics and philosophy and not religion or spiritualism. The whole point of religion is to strengthen the soul and improve ones relationship with their Deity.

I've seen and talked to spirits, I've felt things and seen things I couldn't hope to understand let alone explain. I also know that I can not prove one word of it. That it is not something that happens on demand. So I don't try to convince anybody of it. I fully respect people who do not think there is anything else out there. For me, even I am not 100% positive, but I also like to think that it is not all for nothing. That this life, is not all there is.

I believe you have seen and talked to something, though I can't say for sure what you saw or talked to. It could be an angel, or it could be something else entirely. It depends on how you felt about the experience, and where the experience is taking you.

I would suggest you talk the matter over with someone experienced in spiritual matters if you want to get to the root of it. Of course, the answer you get may vary depending on the religious foundation of whomever you talk to.

[Seifer]

Your justification almost sounds selfish. God doesn't control things to a way that you don't want, so you say "why believe?".

Why believe in one thing without proof and scoff at others? A lot of religious people think Big Foot is a pile of bullshit, yet they accept that there's a God without a shred of evidence for it.

People want to believe that there's a purpose in life, and they want to believe that they aren't simply being tossed around in the waves of life - only able to control what happens around them to a small degree. People like the idea of prayer, because it offers them the illusion of having some control. Sure, prayers aren't always answered, but at least they have the chance to ask a "higher power" to give them what they want/need. It makes them feel like they have a little bit of control.

As discussed in other threads, Free Will means that he lets things happen so that we can have Free Will. Not that he can or can't control them. Once he begins controlling things, we have no Free Will.

Again, what's the point of God, then? If a world with God and a world without him/her/it would be exactly the same (everyone has free will), then why cling to the idea of a god?

Was 9/11 God's fault or those responsible that were supposed to be preventing something like that from happening? Does the existence of God suddenly justify and excuse their failures?

9/11 was the fault of everyone who participated. The existence of a god doesn't justify anything, and a god who advocates murder wouldn't be worth praising, anyway.

This is a common error that atheists make. The assumption is that if God is all powerful (He is), all knowing (he is), and everywhere (he is) that God not only can but should prevent bad things from ever happening to us, and that since He doesn't do this, then He doesn't exist and therefore we need not worship him.

Actually, my reasoning is that it's naive to believe in something when there is no evidence for it, simply because believing is easier. Is life easier when a nice man in the sky is guiding us, trying to help us along, and is willing to give us all we need if we simply search for it? Hell yes. Does that mean it's true. No.

The reason to believe in God is because of the presence He makes in your life. Some people have a hard time (for a variety of reasons) hearing God's call. Or, they willfully ignore it because they are angry with God (I see this a lot in atheists: "What has God done for me," as if God owes them something).

More like, "What has God done for me that can't also be attributed to living life as normal?" If there is no difference between a god doing it and it simply being a part of life, then why bother trying to justify a god? I could put just as much effort into convincing myself that pixies are doing it - it all leads to the same conclusion anyway. It would be something that I couldn't prove, but would desperately want to believe. Therefore, I would see "evidence" for it everywhere.

I prayed to the pixies for wealth and find a dollar on the ground the next day? It must have been the pixies!

I prayed to the pixies to heal me of a cold, and the next day I feel better? (After taking medicine and doing everything I possibly could to heal myself?) It must have been the pixies!

This is literally how religions start. People associate good or bad things in their lives to something (such as a god or even something like the sun), and start to think that if they worship that thing, they can somehow control what happens in their lives.

What's forgotten is the concept of original sin. Original sin isn't that Eve ate the apple and convinced Adam to do the same, therefore we are being punished by God. Original sin is about the loss of innocence that came about when Adam and Eve disobeyed God, then tried to hide their disobedience from Him. Because they lost their innocence, the consequences of their decision lies with everyone.

So God created Satan (even though he knew Satan would be an evil douchebag), then created Adam and Eve and made them completely naive, innocent, and dumber than a bag of hammers. God then allows Satan to meander up to his newest and dumbest creations, whisper sweet lies into their ears, and then punishes the idiots for falling for it? Then he has the nerve to punish humanity for all eternity? If God is all knowing, he knew what would happen all along, and didn't seem to care until it did.

Yep, that's a just and loving God. Why do people worship him again? Oh yeah, because he'll throw you in a fiery pit for all of eternity if you don't. Totally fair!

Free will means we have to accept the consequences of our choices. God isn't there to bail us out of the messes we ourselves create. He's there to guide us to right choices and right action; to urge us to move back towards him by living the kind of life he wants us to live; a life that's been outlined for us by the prophets, and by Jesus.

Firstly, let me just say that no one even knows who wrote the first few books of the New Testament. There is literally no mention of Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John as Jesus' apostles anywhere outside of the Bible. There is no original manuscript to look at, no first-hand accounts of people meeting these men, nothing. We don't even know if more than one person wrote each particular book, or if one person wrote all of them. With written text as old as the Bible (and with it having passed through so many hands), it's ludicrous to think it's come out unscathed.

So, since we can't say with any accuracy if God's "guide" (i.e. the Bible) is true, what's the point? Why would God choose something as easily lost/changed as written word, anyway? It seems like he chose the worst possible way to get his words to his people, then punishes those who have no idea which path is the "correct" one.

Again, if everything God does can be appropriated to simple chance (or just life), then why justify a god?

However, God acts very much like any parent would; guiding and nurturing his creation, but allowing them the freedom to learn and grow on their own--much like any parent has to do with a child. The child must be allowed to fail, must be allowed to make mistakes or learning will never take place.

Just like with Adam and Eve right? Oh wait, they only got one chance, and now we all have to suffer for their mistake.

Miracles are a hard concept to understand, since God does not perform them as openly as he did since the time of Jesus and the Apostles.

It's pretty suspect that now, when we have the tools and resources to verify that something is in fact a "miracle", they don't seem to happen anymore. At least not on the scale as what's told in the Bible.