Misconceptions about Ex Christians.

[Crazedclerkthe2nd]

I personally believe that it is many Christians themselves who turn people away from the faith.

If you look at what certain prominent Christians say about Homosexuality, Gay marriage, Abortion, Jews, Muslims, Black people and so forth you see a lot of bigotry, a lot of outright hatred and a lot of things that don't really scream "Jesus" in any way shape or form.

Then we have hypocrisy. A common example of this would be the "family values" preaching Christian male who rallies against homosexuality only to get busted in a hotel room with another man not long after.

A second example would be a Christian who guilt trips a man over being unfaithful to his wife while at the same time not being faithful in his own marriage.

And of course there are the overly judgmental, holier-than-thou Christians who like to pretend they're better than everyone else because they believe in Christ.

There are, sadly, a ton of people claiming this faith who do it a great disservice and oftentimes I wish Jesus would come back soon so I could personally see him rip these people to shreds over what they preach vs what he taught.

[TheHuckster]

I personally believe that it is many Christians themselves who turn people away from the faith.

If you look at what certain prominent Christians say about Homosexuality, Gay marriage, Abortion, Jews, Muslims, Black people and so forth you see a lot of bigotry, a lot of outright hatred and a lot of things that don't really scream "Jesus" in any way shape or form.

Then we have hypocrisy. A common example of this would be the "family values" preaching Christian male who rallies against homosexuality only to get busted in a hotel room with another man not long after.

A second example would be a Christian who guilt trips a man over being unfaithful to his wife while at the same time not being faithful in his own marriage.

And of course there are the overly judgmental, holier-than-thou Christians who like to pretend they're better than everyone else because they believe in Christ.

There are, sadly, a ton of people claiming this faith who do it a great disservice and oftentimes I wish Jesus would come back soon so I could personally see him rip these people to shreds over what they preach vs what he taught.

Agreed. As a person of faith, I cringe at the horrible and un-Christian statements that have been made by fellow Christians.

[HYHYBT]

then forgive my ignorance, because in 2012, blasphemy laws have been used to imprison at least 30 atheists(one christian girl was framed, and released), for the crime of "posting on facebook*"-let's see some examples, because other than the framing, I haven't seen any news stories on it.

*one was charged with falsifying official paperwork, you have to register as one of 6 different religions-an atheist is forced to commit a crime by existing.(the religions are Muslim, Christian, Jewish, Buddhist, Hindu, and Sikhs)

The claim put forth was that it's ONLY atheists. That law treats anyone not of one of those religions the same, atheist or not.

[Panacea]

I read about a Sihk or Hindu woman forced to convert to being a Muslim, I think it was in India, the reason she was forced was that although raised by her Sihk or Hindu Grandmother, she was born to Muslim parents and by default she was Muslim and once you are declaired thus, you do not get the option to change your mind.

Seems to me I've heard of this; it's a sad example of faith mixing with legal institutions (I am a firm believer in the separation of church and state). If this did happen, the argument is flawed within the religion itself: you have to make a public declaration of the faith in the Five Pillars of Islam in order to be considered a Muslim, and you can't do it until you are of legal age. But once you make it, you're considered an apostate if you convert to another religion. There's a Christian minister in Iran who's in prison right now because he converted to Christianity from Islam.

Another thing is how God of the New Testemant onwards is so hands off compared to the Old Testament, in those days you had him commanding people to do his bidding and smiting etc, it's almost as if he mellowed once he got his end away, so many thousand years of blue balls I might even raise a city to the ground, if I can't enjoy this sin and debauchery, no one can.

This isn't what the change in perception means. What it means is an evolution in Man's understanding of his Creator; Man (through the teachings of Jesus) learns that God is merciful and wants to save Mankind of sin (or rather, wants Man to make the right choices and save himself). God shows us his acceptance and love by sacrificing his Son (Jesus) to absolve us of our sins, and show us a path to reconciliation with God. You don't smite someone you want to reconcile with.

This led me to an analogy from video games like sim city and other 'god' sims, <snip> it is as if God IRL has gone AFK, to which people will say, that is why he gave us free will, we do not need micromanaging, but his being afk and all the strife in the world goes against him too in a way, he could stop in and change the outcome of tragidies (not meaning the latest shootings where people said he didn't interveen cos he was not welcome at the school) but famine in africa, global disasters like hurricanes and floods.

You're basically describing Deism, or the clockmaker analogy. A number of our Founding Fathers were Deists.

then you don't understand why the "Flying Spaghetti Monster" exists.

[/QUOTE]

The problem I have with the Spaghetti Monster is some atheists have taken it beyond the satire for which it was originally (and cleverly) intended and use it as a cudgel to attack everyone's faith regardless of whether they push creationism/intelligent design (they are both the same thing IMHO) or accept evolution. The argument takes on the form of an ad hominem attack because the real target becomes the believer rather than the belief itself.

I personally believe that it is many Christians themselves who turn people away from the faith.

I can't argue with you on this. In fact I agree, and it's the bad behavior of many Christians that turned me off on faith for many, many years (what turned me back on was a spiritual experience that didn't directly involve other people). However, there are a LOT of people of varying faiths who don't do these things, and spend their lives in service to their communities. Everyone has heard of Mother Teresa, but I know a lot of people who are like her: their sole focus is on helping people in need.

I think we need to stop and remember that not everyone who's religious is an asshat about it: and I'm talking about people of all faiths, not just my own.

Back to the OP's original arguments: I'll grant you that not everyone who is an atheist is one because they've misunderstood the tenets of a religious faith (Christianity being the usual one held up here), or is angry with God.

But I sure know a lot of atheists who are angry with God; when I question them they invariably share a personal story in which they had a need and God was not there, and they get quite emotional about it. So it's hard not to recall that situation, because I run into it often with the militant atheists.

I do recognize that not all atheists are that way. The best arguments for rejecting a belief in God came from Carl Sagan. He didn't demean religion, or people who had belief when he presented his views. So while I disagree with him on those aspects of his thinking (and I greatly admire the man), at least from his point of view I can have an open discussion. When the discussion turns to oversimplification of Biblical texts, displays of ignorance on how it was written and what its purpose is, and outright demeaning attacks on those who believe, it's hard not to view those folks as angry and militant about their views.

I don't believe there is a war against religion as some fundamentalists claim. I do think the conversation between the secular and the sacred has broken down and everything is breaking down into mere noise.

No one here has to believe as I do. I'm not suggesting anyone is a bad person for believing as they do, regardless of why they believe it or how they've expressed it. But I do think that I have as much a right to my beliefs as anyone else here has to theirs. So if we're going to have a meaningful discussion of how to balance the needs of the secular with the needs of the sacred, the first thing that has to happen is everyone has to agree that all points of view have the right to exist.

[Mytical]

<Snip> So if we're going to have a meaningful discussion of how to balance the needs of the secular with the needs of the sacred, the first thing that has to happen is everyone has to agree that all points of view have the right to exist.

My thoughts exactly. There is good in people of all faiths (or lack thereof) and there are people who need drop kicked to pluto (of which I am probably one of them ) I will have a friendly philosophical discussion with anybody. When it is clear we both are hitting our heads on a brick wall though..it is time to move on

[crashhelmet]

I personally believe that it is many Christians themselves who turn people away from the faith.

If you look at what certain prominent Christians say about Homosexuality, Gay marriage, Abortion, Jews, Muslims, Black people and so forth you see a lot of bigotry, a lot of outright hatred and a lot of things that don't really scream "Jesus" in any way shape or form.

Then we have hypocrisy. A common example of this would be the "family values" preaching Christian male who rallies against homosexuality only to get busted in a hotel room with another man not long after.

A second example would be a Christian who guilt trips a man over being unfaithful to his wife while at the same time not being faithful in his own marriage.

And of course there are the overly judgmental, holier-than-thou Christians who like to pretend they're better than everyone else because they believe in Christ.

There are, sadly, a ton of people claiming this faith who do it a great disservice and oftentimes I wish Jesus would come back soon so I could personally see him rip these people to shreds over what they preach vs what he taught.

“The greatest single cause of atheism in the world today is Christians: who acknowledge Jesus with their lips, walk out the door, and deny Him by their lifestyle. That is what an unbelieving world simply finds unbelievable.”

- Father Brennan Manning, U.S. Marine & Franciscan Priest

Another of his that I like and think others should consider:
“If we maintain the open-mindedness of children, we challenge fixed ideas and established structures, including our own. We listen to people in other denominations and religions. We don't find demons in those with whom we disagree. We don't cozy up to people who mouth our jargon. If we are open, we rarely resort to either-or: either creation or evolution, liberty or law, sacred or secular, Beethoven or Madonna. We focus on both-and, fully aware that God's truth cannot be imprisoned in a small definition.”

[Panacea]

and there are people who need drop kicked to pluto (of which I am probably one of them )

Ha! Not bloody likely, or at least, not very often.

[Seifer]

I personally believe that it is many Christians themselves who turn people away from the faith.

I think this is true. I probably wouldn't mind Christianity so much if the people in politics would quit trying to shove their religious views down the country's throat. If the people in government weren't constantly trying to dictate how I'm supposed to live my own life, then I would probably be a lot more passive about them and their beliefs. As it is, I have to care a lot about their beliefs, because their beliefs are becoming laws.

[TheHuckster]

I think this is true. I probably wouldn't mind Christianity so much if the people in politics would quit trying to shove their religious views down the country's throat. If the people in government weren't constantly trying to dictate how I'm supposed to live my own life, then I would probably be a lot more passive about them and their beliefs. As it is, I have to care a lot about their beliefs, because their beliefs are becoming laws.

This reminds me of a quote I heard a long time ago... "Jesus is a pretty cool guy. It's his fan club I don't like."

[crashhelmet]

This reminds me of a quote I heard a long time ago... "Jesus is a pretty cool guy. It's his fan club I don't like."

I think there's a quote similar to that attributed to Ghandi. I think it's

"I like your Christ, I do not like your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike your Christ."

[HYHYBT]

I like the "Devil's Panties" version (which I just happened to read today, but I've gone though most of a year of the archive today so all I can say is it's somewhere before this past September, but probably still 2012). Jesus, talking with the devil, says of someone literally hitting somebody with a cross: "he's not a follower, he's a fanboi."

[Rageaholic]

The reason I brought up that post in this thread was because I didn't want to send myticals thread further OT. The post perfectly expressed my (and I assume others) frusturation with all the different interpretations of faith. It's always "oh that's not what it's about, this is the true gospel". A lot of the time the "true gospel" is either the same as the one we heard the first billion times or something even scarier (like Calvinism).

I like what Hyena Dandy said here.

For me, being a Christian has brought great joy to my life. I would hate for someone to become Christian and not enjoy it.

I think this is how it should be, especially if it's about a relationship with God. Too bad a lot of Christians don't see it that way.

[Mytical]

I forget the exact saying, and really have no clue about which book or anything..but (and those of you who are Christian if you can help out here that would be great)..if I am not mistaken the bible even says that if you preach the gospel and it is not received to 'dust off your shoes' and move on. Meaning .. don't beat a dead horse. *chuckles*.

[crashhelmet]

I forget the exact saying, and really have no clue about which book or anything..but (and those of you who are Christian if you can help out here that would be great)..if I am not mistaken the bible even says that if you preach the gospel and it is not received to 'dust off your shoes' and move on. Meaning .. don't beat a dead horse. *chuckles*.

Matthew 10:14

And whosoever shall not receive you, nor hear your words, when ye depart out of that house or city, shake off the dust of your feet.

[smileyeagle1021]

The first misconception: People who leave were in the wrong church or didn't have the correct understanding.

Which church? Which understanding?

For me it was because I was gaining more and more understanding, directly from the Bible, and I was more and more feeling that I couldn't reconcile my life experiences and what I knew in my heart to be true with what was taught in the Bible. Had I NOT understood the church as well, I might still be in it today.

My one issue I have is when people claim those who believe are delusional. They bring up such things as the flying spaghetti monster, magic pixies, or such..and basically insult the intelligence of anybody who believes that something beyond human can exist.

Agreed, I have no doubt that there is a higher power out there... I don't know what the nature of it is, and I don't think I'll ever know, at least not in this life time. And I'm okay with that, I also don't understand the mathematics that explain quantum mechanics, and neither effects how I live my life.

I personally believe that it is many Christians themselves who turn people away from the faith.
.

Very true. While I can't say that it is true that I left the church because of the actions of other Christians, they sure as hell didn't help. Had it not been for the bad behavior of the Christian leadership that I had dealings with, I would have never looked as deeply into the faith to find out what it really meant to me. And, I guess it would be fair to say that since I was disenfranchised by the poor treatment I had received from church elders, I really wasn't putting that much effort into trying to reconcile beliefs.

You're basically describing Deism, or the clockmaker analogy. A number of our Founding Fathers were Deists.

I think I'd of gotten along well with them.

As far as the angry at God bit that was mentioned earlier (it's been posted in a lot of responses, so won't single out a single one to quote), I'm not angry at God. I'm disillusioned and disappointed, but not angry. I grew up being taught about a kind and loving God who would answer your prayers... well, when I was younger my greatest prayer was to feel that love I had been promised, and I never felt it, it was as if He wasn't there. There are still times that I find myself making that same prayer, even though I no longer believe, in the off chance that God has finally decided to pay attention, but I've stopped expecting it to be answered.