Misconceptions about Ex Christians.

[Rageaholic]

I feel the need to address this. I've been reading a few threads in the religion section and noticed typical misconceptions arrising. Since the thread in particular was already off topic, I figured I'd start a new one to not send the thread further off topic.

The first misconception: People who leave were in the wrong church or didn't have the correct understanding.

Which church? Which understanding? Everyone seems to have their own spin on what it means to be a Christian. Someone argues that Jesus dying for our sins makes no sense, but oh! That parts not meant to be taken literally. There's always a different way to interperate it. Which brings the question, why would God be so cryptic? Or more importantly, why should we believe one interpretation over another?

It could be argued that the details don't matter much and all that matters is "love God and love your neighbors"? But even those simple messages can be interpretated different ways. I've heard some take horrifying martyr like extremes on "loving your neighbor as you love yourself" so even those messages can have different spins.

Which brings me to my next one.

You've closed your mind to the possibility of God.

Not true. I still consider the possibilty of God existing. Heck, I don't even think it's that far out there. What I reject is the idea that God is taking an active role in our day to day life. If God does exist, he's pretty subtle and doesn't make himself that known. Because of that, it's natural to doubt, especially when you're expected to base your life around the idea.

I've listened to several apologetic arguements attempting to explain away the doubts, but they tend to be full of logical fallacies. And they still don't prove anything. Just because I want more proof before I base my life around something doesn't mean I'm closed minded.

You just want to live an immoral life

I haven't heard this one anywhere here and I'm glad because it's the one that pisses me off the most. As if Christian morality is the perfect morality that everyone should live by. Even if you don't take a literalist approach to the bible, a lot of the things which are deemed "sins" shouldn't even be a big deal. I've already explained why most of the sexual sins are stupid here.

Now I'm speaking for myself here, but I believe if it's not hurting anyone, it shouldn't be a problem. If anything, I would argue trying to live up to some of these standards is actually harmful. I've heard all the arguments on original sin, but in the end, it all sounds the same, "god screwed up making us so now we have to strive to live the way he wants otherwise he'll condemn us to some form of hell, but he loves you". Bullshit! (And the whole concept of hell is something worth another thread. )

So even if someone does leave the faith because they're sick of Christian morality, I can't say I blame them. All the guilt, high standards, feeling of unworthiness, and self defeating behavior should be discouraged, not encouraged. And even churches that aren't super conservative tend to have some kind of guilt tripping since the main idea of Christianity is that Jesus paid for our sins. The guilt may be more subtle, but it’s there.

To conclude, I think a lot of Christians underestimate how much EX followers know and underestimate their experience. Of course there are exceptions, but from what I read, a lot of the reasoning behind leaving are much more complicated. And even then, it’s easy to get alienated by judgmental comments about how selfish or close minded non believers are.

And fo reference, here's a site listing deconversion stories. A lot are pretty extreme, but they get the point across.

[Seifer]

Misconception I see a lot:

You lost faith because you're angry with God.

[HYHYBT]

Your first two (at least) probably are true for some people, but it's certainly not fair to assume... and it takes a lot of gall to demand that you're right about why someone else has made the decision (or come to the conclusion) they did, especially after they tell you you're wrong about it.

[Rageaholic]

Ah the angry with God one. Can't believe I forgot that one. To quote from another thread.

My point in that conversation was, AGAIN, that people have to make up excuses to justify their belief in a god that does things ass-backwards. The story of Adam and Eve doesn't make any sense? It makes God look like a giant douchebag who not only created a being of unconditional evil, but then let it corrupt the naive, stupid, and innocent beings he made?

"OH WELL, YOU SEE, THAT STORY ISN'T MEANT TO BE TAKEN LITERALLY. IT'S SUPPOSED TO TEACH YOU A MORAL. THAT MORAL IS TO NOT GO AGAINST GOD, NO MATTER WHAT. EVEN IF HE SETS YOU UP TO FAIL, IT'S NOT GOD'S FAULT YOU FAILED. IT'S YOURS. THAT'S BECAUSE PEOPLE ARE AWFUL, HORRIBLE CREATURES WITHOUT GOD TO PUSH US IN THE RIGHT DIRECTION."

Do you see how STUPID that argument is? It gives me a headache listening to that shit. To see people trying so hard to justify their love for this being that doesn't seem to give a shit about them is mind-blowing. "Nothing is God's fault, it's ours! Humans are horrible, disgusting creatures who deserve punishment! We deserve hell, but God's so awesome, he decided he'd give us a chance to prove our worth!"

Christianity and all it's sister religions are a masochist's dream. It's all about being a low, despicable creature - undeserving of anything and everything. But then God swoops in to save the day, but only if people continue to twist themselves into knots trying to live up to this unfair level of perfection.

The reason I don't accept the claim of a God is because I don't see any possible reason to do so. It's not because, "I PRAYED TO GOD ONCE AND DIDN'T GET MY BICYCLE", it's because there is NO EVIDENCE A GOD EXISTS. There was no reason for me to continue justifying my belief when I could see that it was unjustifiable.

Can I get an amen! I've been wanting to say something like this for a while, but didn't know how to put it.

I also want to add that even though we do find the ideas in Christianity immoral, that's not why we don't believe. There are a few laws that I despise, but I still follow them because I don't want to go to jail. On the other hand, I don't know if there's a burning hell awaiting for what ever bullshit "sin" I commited. Worrying about it is only going to drive me crazy since I'll never know if I'm good enough. So it's best to just accept it as "I don't know" and move on with my life.

[Hyena Dandy]

It bugs me when people assume they know everything about why someone doesn't believe in God.

For quite some time, I was an atheist. Over a long time, about the time I was in highschool, I gradually drifted towards Christianity thanks to a girl I was dating at the time. Around senior year, I declared myself Christian. In part it was about coming to terms with the fact that, at some level, I was always Christian and was rejecting it because around where I was, that was cool.

But you know, when I BECAME Christian, I didn't immediately assume that everyone around me was also only claiming not to be Christian for social acceptance. I assumed that, okay, they genuinely hold beliefs that I don't.

The thing is, so many people seem to see Christianity as something you need a REASON for not being, instead of one of many paths that people take in life. It's what's right for me. But not being a Christian needs as much justification as not being a Jew, or a Muslim.

Atheists I feel are held to this high standard, of having to have looked at EVERYTHING before deciding not to believe. Muslims aren't asked "Oh, but did you look at Christianity before you became a Muslim?" They don't have to have. Some people are Muslims. Some are Christians.

For me, being a Christian has brought great joy to my life. I would hate for someone to become Christian and not enjoy it.

Some atheists are atheists because they find Christianity immoral. Some are atheists because they believe they can prove God doesn't exist. Some are atheists because they only believe in something they CAN empirically prove, but see nothing immoral about being Christian or anything else. Some are atheists because they just don't really believe in anything. My dad is like that. He just doesn't believe in anything, and doesn't care who or what anyone else does. He doesn't find Christianity "Immoral." He just finds it untrue.

I certainly don't find atheism immoral. In the same way I don't find it immoral to think that Dallas is the capital of Texas. It's Austin. But thinking Dallas is the capital of Texas isn't a character judgement. It's just something that's not true.

Similarly, I do believe in God. I think "God exists" is a true statement. I don't give a fuck if anyone else does, because I don't think being wrong is a sin. It's just wrong. And unlike Austin/Dallas, we don't have a quick map to check. When we die, one of us will have been right, and one of us will have been wrong.

Either way, I'll have lived a life I find worth living, and I think that's the point. I don't need to justify my faith. Atheists don't need to justify their lack of faith. The answers will come later. For now, one thing that almost every faith agrees on is that there are 7 Billion people in this world. And you know what? A lot of them are unhappy. A lot of them are sick. A lot of them are poor. A lot of them are in need. And just about everyone, Christian, Atheist, Hindu, Muslim, Jew, Buddhist, Shinto, Wiccan - Everyone thinks that fixing that would be a good thing.

Once every person is fed, and clothed, and happy, then I might care about the fact that you think there's no God and I think there is. Until that is achieved, I sincerely don't give a fuck what you believe, or why you believe it.

[Ginger Tea]

Atheists I feel are held to this high standard, of having to have looked at EVERYTHING before deciding not to believe. Muslims aren't asked "Oh, but did you look at Christianity before you became a Muslim?" They don't have to have. Some people are Muslims. Some are Christians.

I don't know if this is true across the board or just a few countries that are predominantly Muslim or have a significant chunk of the populace who are.

A few years ago (maybe from a thread here I forget) I read about a Sihk or Hindu woman forced to convert to being a Muslim, I think it was in India, the reason she was forced was that although raised by her Sihk or Hindu Grandmother, she was born to Muslim parents and by default she was Muslim and once you are declaired thus, you do not get the option to change your mind.

With me I am rather meh about the existance of a creator of any demomination or another planet, my father had a dislike for organised religions and never raised me to belive in any one of them, I could if I wanted to become religious, I just never chose to look into any of them, so I haven't ended up devoid of a named religion by looking at all the others and finding them lacking in some way or just not to my taste, I just never felt the need.

Another thing is how God of the New Testemant onwards is so hands off compared to the Old Testament, in those days you had him commanding people to do his bidding and smiting etc, it's almost as if he mellowed once he got his end away, so many thousand years of blue balls I might even raise a city to the ground, if I can't enjoy this sin and debauchery, no one can.

This led me to an analogy from video games like sim city and other 'god' sims, years ago I was watching a TV show about AI or just sim city in general, but that game sticks in my mind, one player fell asleep during a long session and awoke to find the game had kept on playing without him, the city had expanded in so many ways and he almost became an unnecessary part of the process, it is as if God IRL has gone AFK, to which people will say, that is why he gave us free will, we do not need micromanaging, but his being afk and all the strife in the world goes against him too in a way, he could stop in and change the outcome of tragidies (not meaning the latest shootings where people said he didn't interveen cos he was not welcome at the school) but famine in africa, global disasters like hurricanes and floods.

[Jaden]

While I don't disagree with the basic premise of this thread, it sure didn't take long for it to change from "I wish some Christians would show more respect to people who were formerly Christians", which is fine and true, to "Christians are objectively wrong and self-deceptive in their beliefs." What, pray tell, does this

My point in that conversation was, AGAIN, that people have to make up excuses to justify their belief in a god that does things ass-backwards. The story of Adam and Eve doesn't make any sense? It makes God look like a giant douchebag who not only created a being of unconditional evil, but then let it corrupt the naive, stupid, and innocent beings he made?

"OH WELL, YOU SEE, THAT STORY ISN'T MEANT TO BE TAKEN LITERALLY. IT'S SUPPOSED TO TEACH YOU A MORAL. THAT MORAL IS TO NOT GO AGAINST GOD, NO MATTER WHAT. EVEN IF HE SETS YOU UP TO FAIL, IT'S NOT GOD'S FAULT YOU FAILED. IT'S YOURS. THAT'S BECAUSE PEOPLE ARE AWFUL, HORRIBLE CREATURES WITHOUT GOD TO PUSH US IN THE RIGHT DIRECTION."

Do you see how STUPID that argument is? It gives me a headache listening to that shit. To see people trying so hard to justify their love for this being that doesn't seem to give a shit about them is mind-blowing. "Nothing is God's fault, it's ours! Humans are horrible, disgusting creatures who deserve punishment! We deserve hell, but God's so awesome, he decided he'd give us a chance to prove our worth!"

Christianity and all it's sister religions are a masochist's dream. It's all about being a low, despicable creature - undeserving of anything and everything. But then God swoops in to save the day, but only if people continue to twist themselves into knots trying to live up to this unfair level of perfection.

The reason I don't accept the claim of a God is because I don't see any possible reason to do so. It's not because, "I PRAYED TO GOD ONCE AND DIDN'T GET MY BICYCLE", it's because there is NO EVIDENCE A GOD EXISTS. There was no reason for me to continue justifying my belief when I could see that it was unjustifiable.

have to do with the premise of this thread? Do we need another thread to talk about why you disagree with Christianity? Because there seem to be a few of those. While I have no problem with your beliefs or Seifer's beliefs, and while I know the original context for that quoted post was in the middle of an actual debate about the validity of Christianity, I don't see why it needed to be brought up here. You complain about not getting shown the respect deserved by people of other faiths - fair enough. Show some respect to those other faiths yourself, however.

That doesn't get an amen from me. This does:

Either way, I'll have lived a life I find worth living, and I think that's the point. I don't need to justify my faith. Atheists don't need to justify their lack of faith. The answers will come later. For now, one thing that almost every faith agrees on is that there are 7 Billion people in this world. And you know what? A lot of them are unhappy. A lot of them are sick. A lot of them are poor. A lot of them are in need. And just about everyone, Christian, Atheist, Hindu, Muslim, Jew, Buddhist, Shinto, Wiccan - Everyone thinks that fixing that would be a good thing.

Once every person is fed, and clothed, and happy, then I might care about the fact that you think there's no God and I think there is. Until that is achieved, I sincerely don't give a fuck what you believe, or why you believe it.

[Mytical]

I am also an ex-christian. My road maybe slightly different from yours, but the end was pretty much the same. I no longer believe what I did when I was a christian. I have no arguments or dislike for ex-christians, or Muslim, Jewish, Atheist, or anybody else.

My one issue I have is when people claim those who believe are delusional. They bring up such things as the flying spaghetti monster, magic pixies, or such..and basically insult the intelligence of anybody who believes that something beyond human can exist.

I look around, and there is no doubt in this world we are the top of the food chain. The top of the evolutionary chain if you will. Then I see the hate, the way we treat each other, and the terrible things humans are capable of..and I can't help but think to myself. Surely there has to be something else out there, something in the evolutionary chain that has moved beyond such pettiness and evil. We can't be all that there is. So maybe I am delusional in my belief that something has to be out there..something above what mankind has become. I don't know. What I do know is, if we are it..if we are the penultimate beings in this universe..then I weep for the universe.

[Seifer]

What does this...SNIP...have to do with the premise of this thread?

While the entire quote wasn't necessary, I think what Rageaholic was trying to point out was the "You're only an atheist because you're angry with God!" argument at the end of it. That's one of the arguments that really pisses me off. I'm not so shallow as to give up a belief over the fact that I didn't get something I wanted.

What I do know is, if we are it..if we are the penultimate beings in this universe..then I weep for the universe.

I have major doubts that humanity and Earth are all there is in the universe. There are literally billions of galaxies out there, and all of them have their own stars and planets. To think that we're the only planet in the entire universe to have intelligent life is practically unbelievable. I am of the opinion that there is probably other life out there, we just haven't found it yet. I don't think we'll find it for a long time, either. Not until we're able to embark on missions outside of our own galaxy.

[BlaqueKatt]

My one issue I have is when people claim those who believe are delusional. They bring up such things as the flying spaghetti monster, magic pixies, or such..and basically insult the intelligence of anybody who believes that something beyond human can exist.

then you don't understand why the "Flying Spaghetti Monster" exists.

The "Flying Spaghetti Monster" was first described in a satirical open letter written by Bobby Henderson in 2005 to protest the Kansas State Board of Education decision to permit teaching intelligent design as an alternative to evolution in public school science classes. In that letter, Henderson satirized creationist ideas by professing his belief that whenever a scientist carbon dates an object, a supernatural creator that closely resembles spaghetti and meatballs is there "changing the results with His Noodly Appendage". Henderson argued that his beliefs and intelligent design were equally valid, and called for Flying Spaghetti Monsterism to be allotted equal time in science classrooms alongside intelligent design and evolution. After Henderson published the letter on his website, the Flying Spaghetti Monster rapidly became an Internet phenomenon and a symbol used against teaching intelligent design in public schools

That's all it is, Atheists are the least trusted group in the world(in some countries we can be killed or imprisoned for even existing-that isn't true for any other belief group), anything most atheists say about religion is viewed as an attack, because belief is held above all criticism, and must be treated with "kid gloves", some of us don't believe any idea should be above criticism.

[Mytical]

When somebody equates belief in something higher then ourself existing to belief in fairies, unicorns, or yes even flying spaghetti monsters.. yeah I get a little irked..regardless of why they chose whatever they equate it to. I mean I don't think unicorns exist, nor bigfoot, nor do I think we have been visited by UFO's. I may not know what is out there, but that does not make me delusional. I do not believe in what is known as 'intelligent design' exactly, though yes I think that some intelligent force could have guided things. *shrugs*

As for persecution...yes that is bad. I have to say though, that those of religion have faced the same in the past. That does not excuse their behavior, nor do I think that anybody should be persecuted for what they believe..or don't believe. All I ask is the same respect given me as I give others who's view differs from mine. Not to have insults hurled my way because I choose to believe. *Shrugs*

[Seifer]

That's all it is, Atheists are the least trusted group in the world(in some countries we can be killed or imprisoned for even existing-that isn't true for any other belief group)

I wouldn't go that far. Atheists are persecuted around the world, yes, but people from different religions can be persecuted depending on where they are.

[Andara Bledin]

in some countries we can be killed or imprisoned for even existing-that isn't true for any other belief group...

That is categorically incorrect, and I'd be honestly shocked to learn that any regular poster to this forum didn't know that.

^-.-^

[BlaqueKatt]

That is categorically incorrect, and I'd be honestly shocked to learn that any regular poster to this forum didn't know that.

^-.-^

then forgive my ignorance, because in 2012, blasphemy laws have been used to imprison at least 30 atheists(one christian girl was framed, and released), for the crime of "posting on facebook*"-let's see some examples, because other than the framing, I haven't seen any news stories on it.

*one was charged with falsifying official paperwork, you have to register as one of 6 different religions-an atheist is forced to commit a crime by existing.(the religions are Muslim, Christian, Jewish, Buddhist, Hindu, and Sikhs)

[Andara Bledin]

Well, how about this list of the Top 10 Most Dangerous Places to be Christian?

And with the almost-constant conflict in the Middle East, it's hard to not be aware of the dangers of being Jewish in the wrong region.

Plus, it's pure ignorance of modern events to ignore the anti-Muslim and anti-Islam sentiments that still endanger the lives of anyone even of the same appearance in some places. A recent example - in Myanmar, a group of Buddhists recently set fire to a Muslim village, killing 50 and destroying over 1000 homes.

Xenophobia and othering is pretty much universal in human culture and to claim that your group is the only one suffering from it is myopic, at best.

^-.-^