Take your apocalypse and...

[Amethyst Hunter]

...place it tightly into a small area wherein no sunlight is able to reflect off of the dark murky surfaces and illuminate these repulsive halls.

Religion pisses me off enough as it is (for the record: agnostic, and no, it is *not* the same thing as atheist), but Rapturemaniacs really disgust me. It's one thing to personally believe in that crap, but when they go spreading it around and/or purposely try to make it happen just so they can get some kind of sick satisfaction out of saying "see I was right neener neener neener!"...it REALLY makes me hope that they end up in the *opposite* of where they were expecting to go.

For the record, Jesus said that not even *HE* knew anything about the world supposedly ending, so if you subscribe to the line of thought that says Christ is the ultimate authority, well, then, that kinda blows the whole End Times racket out of the water, doesn't it? Jesus also said we were not to focus on things like that but to concentrate on "building the kingdom of God". What constitutes appropriate building? Helping the poor, feeding the hungry, taking care of the sick, watching out for the oppressed, etc. NOT trying to kick off wars or kill off what some people believe are "sinners"!

It just makes me so mad how people distort and bastardize a religion for their own sick purposes. It's why I can never bring myself to commit to any religion, because they've all been fucked up beyond intelligent reason, and I refuse to contribute to something that is supposed to (in theory) help people but too often winds up being used to hurt them instead.

[AdminAssistant]

I'm assuming this is the Fratching post related to the CS topic.

Many evangelical Christians do look forward to the Rapture. It's not about the condemnation of sinners - it's the fact that they'll be united with God and live in Heaven during the Tribulation. So, of course, they anticipate it eagerly. Many scholars have looked at Revelations and have said that many of the conditions for the coming of the End Times have been fulfilled. So, many feel that the time has come and they are waiting eagerly. (This has been happening for centuries, btw).

Also, I don't know about this whole, "Christ is the ultimate authority". Christ is part of the Trinity, but God the Father is the head of that Trinity, and only he knows when the End Times will come about. Christ explained that in the Gospels. The Father will call for the Rapture and at the end of the Tribulation, Christ fights the AntiChrist.

I'm personally not rooting for the Rapture, and I do see how many denominations have twisted the Bible to fit their own purposes. I personally take the Bible with many grains of salt, as a text inspired by God but edited by men to fit the purpose of the Catholic Church. However, I do not fear it.

I have 100% respect for anyone's beliefs, and I ask for the same. I do not believe that I am right and all other people are wrong. I think God is too big, too mystical for anyone to understand. Jews, Muslims, Hindis, Buddhists, pagans, atheists, agnostics, whatever. Live life the best you can, help as many people as you can, and there will be reward. I don't think God is as angry and close-minded as many have portrayed him as.

Now, I will say that I don't understand people joking about going to Hell. I just don't find the idea of eternal suffering very amusing.

[anriana]

Now, I will say that I don't understand people joking about going to Hell. I just don't find the idea of eternal suffering very amusing.

I don't find eternal suffering amusing, but I find the concept of manipulating people for centuries with the threat of fire and brimstone terribly amusing. In my mind, the church has already destroyed any real credibility the idea of hell has to a non-believer by using it as a tool to raise money (indulgences) and blatantly manipulate public behavior, so why should I take it more seriously than church leaders do?

[Flyndaran]

The trinity is catholicism, not necessary by a long shot to be called a christian.
Also, the bible states that Jesus said that the end will come before his fellow men's death. Of course since that didn't happen, the quote gets twisted to mean before mankind's death... which seems like a really stupid thing to say. No sh*t the end of the world for mankind will happen before the death of mankind.

But as religion itself, and faith especially, makes not a bit of sense to me, I have a tendency to lump all the apocolyptic idiots with every religious zealot or loon.

Before mods take offense, I must state, even though it should be obvious, that I don't find all religious people to be idiots or loons.
The fact that you guys outnumber my kind, (the born non-superstitious which is a MUCH smaller subset of atheists than you may think) thousands if not millions to one scares the bejesus out of me... so sorry if I come on somewhat confrontationally.

[Jadedcarguy]

Ooohhhh, a thread about my thread. Joy joy happy dance!!!

I've never been banned from a chat board and I don't plan on starting now, but I think I can be a little looser with my thoughts here than I can on CS.

I'm not going to really lay into religion here, that will just start a battle that will go on for many pages. I've been down that road and it was rather pointless, actually. I would like to expand a bit on why I'm not Christian, however.

Religion's influence needs to be curtailed before it destroys life as we know it. Think I'm being a little alarmist? Not really. To paraphrase Sam Harris, there are people in this world who truly believe that the afterlife will hold many more riches for them if they die while taking out some unbelievers. They really truly believe this. How long will it be before these folks get nuclear capability? Seriously, think about it.

If you think it only extends to folks in the Middle East, no. For some good old fashioned ass-puckering intartoobz browsing, google "Joel's Army". Those people are in the US, and they really believe that God wants them to take out the sinners! The Phelps clan has nothin' on them! Some Christian fundie churches hold abortion bombers in near-sainthood. Murderers, doing the Lord's work.

AdminAssistant, you say that religious beliefs should be given 100% respect. I very respecfully disagree. What I will respect is your right to believe absolutely anything you want. However, if I think that belief is silly, without merit, or downright dangerous, it warrants no respect. In return, I ask that believers respect my right not to believe.

I don't want to wipe out religion. Some folks take great comfort in it and it truly helps them get through life. Others have a purpose for it that is far darker, and the insistence that we "respect" others' beliefs only gives them a shield to continue their new crusade.

I'm sure there are some here already composing a frothy retort, but I ask this: what if the situation were reversed? What if you had to hide your faith from the masses for fear of real persecution? What if you bristled at the thought of discussing your beliefs because most others would look at you as if you were evil or dangerous if they knew how you felt? If you can imagine that, that's atheism and to a lesser extent agnosticism every day.

This is a little longer than I had planned, sorry.

[AdminAssistant]

What if you had to hide your faith from the masses for fear of real persecution? What if you bristled at the thought of discussing your beliefs because most others would look at you as if you were evil or dangerous if they knew how you felt? If you can imagine that, that's atheism and to a lesser extent agnosticism every day.

Honestly, in many parts of the US, I don't see much of a reaction to atheism or agnosticism, beyond scoffing or rolling of eyes - at least amongst adults (kids in a school situation I'm sure have a harder time). There are religious groups out there who are being killed/beaten/jailed for what they believe. Sunnis and Shiites of course pop to mind, along with the fighting amongst Hindus and Muslims. Christians in Sudan have been killed and Christians in China have been tossed in jail for having a Bible. Jews in Russia are still facing strong resentment and hatred.

Now, I am not one to cry "Christians are persecuted!" here in the US, because that's ridiculous and stupid. No religious group is really persecuted here.

I should caveat my previous comment to say that everyone has the right to believe what they want to believe (and lack of belief IS a belief - an atheist BELIEVES that there is no God) as long as it does not wish harm upon others*. If someone wants to start up the Church of the Golden Arches and make cheeseburger sacrifices to Ronald McDonald - more power to them. That's the great thing about the First Amendment - they have that right and privelege, and I support their right to do that.

* Keep in mind that most of the groups that advocate violence are fringe groups that do not represent the whole. Christians who sanctify those who bomb abortion clinics do not represent Christianity, IMO. They are going against Christ's teachings of love, peace, and acceptance. Do not judge the many by the few.

[Pedersen]

Do not judge the many by the few.

I'm starting to hear this retort more and more, and it's starting to bug me finally.

If these people are outcasts amongst your community, then cast them out, loudly and publicly. Denounce their actions at every opportunity. If people ask if you're a <insert faith here>, respond with "Yes, but I don't share the views of the militaristic nutjobs". Make it known that these "few" truly are few, and that their beliefs are horrid to you.

As it is, I'm seeing more and more religious intolerance from the religious, and quite frankly, I'm finding myself scared of religion. I believe there's a big war coming, and it's going to be fought over religion. And if the moderates don't start speaking up and denouncing the extremists, putting them back into their holes, the extremists are going to set the rules, and they will become the majority.

Just as lack of belief is a belief, failure to act is an action. And in this case, failing to act amounts to tacit approval for those whose actions you state are against the religion you hold dear.

If you don't want to have people say you approve of such actions, speak up and say so, and not just here. If humanity is going to survive, we need more people on all sides to speak up and say "Enough!"

And stop saying "That's not me. I don't approve of it. Don't blame me or my friends for it."

[Jadedcarguy]

Honestly, in many parts of the US, I don't see much of a reaction to atheism or agnosticism, beyond scoffing or rolling of eyes - at least amongst adults (kids in a school situation I'm sure have a harder time).

It really depends on where in the US you are. Some areas are far worse than others. Look at it from the other side, though. Try and hold a meeting or get-together for a Christian group, and you will meet with little or more likely no resistance. Try it with an atheist or secularist group, and once word gets out you will receive hate-filled emails, preachy rants aiming to get you to "see the truth" and possible death threats. Trust me, I've been there.

There are religious groups out there who are being killed/beaten/jailed for what they believe. Sunnis and Shiites of course pop to mind, along with the fighting amongst Hindus and Muslims. Christians in Sudan have been killed and Christians in China have been tossed in jail for having a Bible. Jews in Russia are still facing strong resentment and hatred.

Precisely the point I was making. Millions of people are killing each other over an intangible entity that they've never seen, and they've been doing it for centuries. I can't sum it up any better than that.

(and lack of belief IS a belief - an atheist BELIEVES that there is no God)

No. Not so. Is lack of a steak dinner a different kind of steak dinner? I don't knit quilts. Is "not knitting quilts" a hobby? Is a lack of funds in my wallet actually funds that I can spend at a different store? No. Lack of belief is quite simply lack of belief. Nothing more, no mysticism, no rituals.

I'll tell you what I do believe, though. The similar notions of God as presented by Christianity, Islam, and Judaism present to me a very flawed, very human entity that does not possess the qualities or capabilities of an omnipotent, omniscient being. Instead I see what primitive people thought such a being might be like.

I don't believe He's real in the same way I disregard Santa, the tooth fairy, and the Easter bunny. Do you consider your lack of belief in them to be a belief, or is it simply something you don't believe?

* Keep in mind that most of the groups that advocate violence are fringe groups that do not represent the whole. Christians who sanctify those who bomb abortion clinics do not represent Christianity, IMO. They are going against Christ's teachings of love, peace, and acceptance. Do not judge the many by the few.

This reinforces the point I made in my other post. Many people who claim a religion are good folks looking for meaning and substance to the sometimes harsh reality of life. They mean no harm and are appalled when they see the actions of zealots acting in the name of God. They provide the perfect cover.

Many of the zealots start out as seeming like very spiritual, very Godly people. They read their Bibles regularly, go to all of the church functions, and seem to be "true Christians". Then they start talking about hearing the voice of God, God telling them to do things. They talk of seeing demons and feeling as if the dark spirits are stalking them, trying to stop them from doing the "Lord's work". Do the other parishioners tell them to seek help? No, not usually. They usually think that this person has achieved a level of spirituality that few will ever see. God talked to Moses and Abraham too, after all. Some of them even get jealous that God isn't talking to them. Yeah, I long for voices in my head too.

Suddenly Mr. Zealot is in the national news for <insert tragedy here> against <insert sinners or infidel group here>. The parishioners are shocked at the actions of such a "good, spiritual man", while the secularists among us are thinking "You didn't see this coming?"

You may think this is far fetched but it isn't. Most of the folks who gay-bash or shoot abortion doctors or take a shotgun into a liberal church(just happened, check the news) show signs of destabilization for months if not years before they commit their crime.

If the parishioners in Mr. Zealot's church would have thought he was losing his shit instead of assuming he was touched by God then <tragedy> may have been averted. But it is the reluctance to criticize religious belief that allows this kind of thing to happen, and it will happen again and again and again until people in general, religious and non, have the balls to stand up and say "Wait a minute, so-and-so isn't touched by God, they're batshit crazy! They need help!" I hope that day comes sooner rather than too late.

[Jadedcarguy]

I'm starting to hear this retort more and more, and it's starting to bug me finally.

If these people are outcasts amongst your community, then cast them out, loudly and publicly. Denounce their actions at every opportunity. If people ask if you're a <insert faith here>, respond with "Yes, but I don't share the views of the militaristic nutjobs". Make it known that these "few" truly are few, and that their beliefs are horrid to you.

As it is, I'm seeing more and more religious intolerance from the religious, and quite frankly, I'm finding myself scared of religion. I believe there's a big war coming, and it's going to be fought over religion. And if the moderates don't start speaking up and denouncing the extremists, putting them back into their holes, the extremists are going to set the rules, and they will become the majority.

Just as lack of belief is a belief, failure to act is an action. And in this case, failing to act amounts to tacit approval for those whose actions you state are against the religion you hold dear.

If you don't want to have people say you approve of such actions, speak up and say so, and not just here. If humanity is going to survive, we need more people on all sides to speak up and say "Enough!"

And stop saying "That's not me. I don't approve of it. Don't blame me or my friends for it."

Good God man, we need to sit down and have a beer!!

That being said, I'm off to bed now.

[anriana]

Honestly, in many parts of the US, I don't see much of a reaction to atheism or agnosticism, beyond scoffing or rolling of eyes - at least amongst adults (kids in a school situation I'm sure have a harder time).

And what if that is the part of the US that the atheist happens to live in?

Now, I am not one to cry "Christians are persecuted!" here in the US, because that's ridiculous and stupid. No religious group is really persecuted here.

I should caveat my previous comment to say that everyone has the right to believe what they want to believe (and lack of belief IS a belief - an atheist BELIEVES that there is no God) as long as it does not wish harm upon others*. If someone wants to start up the Church of the Golden Arches and make cheeseburger sacrifices to Ronald McDonald - more power to them. That's the great thing about the First Amendment - they have that right and privelege, and I support their right to do that.

While I completely agree that there are no religious or faith-based groups being persecuted on the same level as in other countries right now, there is plenty of persecution based on faith. Wiccan soldiers just recently won the right to have symbols of their faith on their tombstones, and that was heavily contested. One of the VP candidates was blessed against witchcraft - a major political person was spiritually fortified against a religion practiced by American people! The Religious Right is dedicated to forcing their beliefs on others and denying other people the ability to live free of Christian oppression - they are even ignoring the First Amendment to do so (see: Max Hardcore)

[Slytovhand]

However, if I think that belief is silly, without merit, or downright dangerous, it warrants no respect.

And herein lies part of the problem...

Realistically, all religions should be considered 'silly' or 'without merit'. I mean, I do a bit with scientology, and the amount of flak I've copped over that by people who don't understand what it's really about (ie - threads on this forum!), and yet, if they really did look at the reality of it, it is actually far less 'silly' or 'without merit' than most other religions out there.

Or, to put it more bluntly, the problem with religions is that it tells people what is silly or not, and what does or does not have merit... ie - it's a human thing. Humans make the rules, humans still decide (regardless of what books people refer to... which is exactly what this thread is about... God's "love everyone" message gets ignored in favour of "sinners should be sent to hell").

[Sylvia727]

If these people are outcasts amongst your community, then cast them out, loudly and publicly. Denounce their actions at every opportunity. If people ask if you're a <insert faith here>, respond with "Yes, but I don't share the views of the militaristic nutjobs". Make it known that these "few" truly are few, and that their beliefs are horrid to you.

I shouldn't have to qualify my answer based on the views of militaristic nutjobs. If the conversation turns to religious (or political, or moral) beliefs, then I will explain my beliefs and contrast my positions with the crazies'. But to introduce myself as "Yes, I'm a Muslim, but don't worry, I'm not a terrorist" is just as silly as "Yes, I'm white, but I promise I'm not a racist like some whites you may have heard about". When introducing myself as a Christian - a religion literally founded on "love thy neighbor, do good to those who hate you" - I should not have to clarify that I am, in fact, what the religion teaches its followers should be. If I believed something in opposition to the church's teachings, then it would be appropriate for me to clarify that at the time.

You assume that these nutjobs are members of the community. Take Phelps, for example. He claims to be Christian and speak God's will. But none of the legitimate Christian denominations are affiliated with him. He and his people are not members of "the Christian community". If you asked an Episcopalian, say, or a Lutheran or a Baptist what they thought of the Westboro group, their response would (almost) always be disgust. But there is no connection between Episcopalians and Westborons. There's no need for an average Christian to define himself as "anti-Westboro" or indeed, "anti-nutjob".

And stop saying "That's not me. I don't approve of it. Don't blame me or my friends for it."

But it isn't me, and I don't approve of it. I'm not going to pretend that an asshole who claims to be affiliated with me actually is - he isn't! If you insist on blaming an entire religion for a tiny segment that professes to be affiliated, then don't be surprised when the true believers react to you with denial and disgust.

[anriana]

When introducing myself as a Christian - a religion literally founded on "love thy neighbor, do good to those who hate you" - I should not have to clarify that I am, in fact, what the religion teaches its followers should be. If I believed something in opposition to the church's teachings, then it would be appropriate for me to clarify that at the time.

Having been dragged to church for 15 years, read the Bible, and studied the origions of Christianity, that is not at all what I would consider the religion to be founded on. (I'm not saying you haven't done those, just that we've obviously drawn vastly different conclusions) Something like "wrest control of society from the pagans while subjugating women" would be my definition.

You assume that these nutjobs are members of the community. Take Phelps, for example. He claims to be Christian and speak God's will. But none of the legitimate Christian denominations are affiliated with him. He and his people are not members of "the Christian community". If you asked an Episcopalian, say, or a Lutheran or a Baptist what they thought of the Westboro group, their response would (almost) always be disgust. But there is no connection between Episcopalians and Westborons. There's no need for an average Christian to define himself as "anti-Westboro" or indeed, "anti-nutjob".

Would you consider Southern Baptists as part of the Christian community? They're one of the largest denominations in America and their very mission statement is full of misogyny.

[Pedersen]

I shouldn't have to qualify my answer based on the views of militaristic nutjobs.

Hi, I'd like to be among the first to welcome you to planet Earth. One of the failures we as humans as have is that we tend to put people into groups. As a result, if someone claims to be a member of a particular group, we tend to view that entire group by the actions of that one person.

As a result, take someone like Phelps, and listen to him claim to be Christian. Listen to the silence of other Christians in condemning him. If they do condemn him, they do so amongst themselves. They do not tell non-Christians "I'm a Christian, and Phelps's clan is wrong."

From there, it becomes easy to believe that Fred Phelps is representative of the Christian viewpoint. If he's not, start denouncing him loud and long. Start telling people he does not represent you. Doing anything less puts him back into your group in the eyes of outsiders. Don't like it? I'm sorry, but us mere mortals tend to do that, even when we try not to.

But it isn't me, and I don't approve of it. I'm not going to pretend that an asshole who claims to be affiliated with me actually is - he isn't! If you insist on blaming an entire religion for a tiny segment that professes to be affiliated, then don't be surprised when the true believers react to you with denial and disgust.

If you're not going to make sure that people know how you feel about these groups, don't be surprised when the true non-believers react to your entire religion with denial and disgust.

[AdminAssistant]

But it isn't me, and I don't approve of it. I'm not going to pretend that an asshole who claims to be affiliated with me actually is - he isn't! If you insist on blaming an entire religion for a tiny segment that professes to be affiliated, then don't be surprised when the true believers react to you with denial and disgust.

Exactly!

And, for the record, I believe Sylvia is thinking about the teachings of Christ and the very beginnings of the church. The early Catholic church is really to blame for many of the things that you are accusing all of Christianity for. I personally do not identify with a denomination or attend services (I am considering Unitarian Universalism, though). My relationship with God is personal...and I think he understands that I need sleeeep on Sundays.

Many of the beliefs held by Southern Baptists are misogynistic, that I will grant you. For example, women are not allowed to preach in church or be deacons. They are allowed to testify, witness, sing, etc. (I attended Southern Baptist churches growing up.) But that is a very small part of the sermons I attended. And believe me when I tell you that women are a very big part of that church - and many I know are very independently minded, strong women. I don't believe in many of the doctrines that the Southern Baptist leadership encourages, but, the core beliefs of salvation and baptism I do believe in. I feel that the other 'stuff' is less important and away from Christ's intentions.

I mean, I don't say "All pagans make animal sacrifices" or "All Wiccans drink blood" or anything else similarly ridiculous. I wouldn't. And all I ask is for the same consideration. Don't lump me in with Phelps or Jim Jones or any other radical nutjob. That's like lumping Mormons in with polygamist cults. I detest Phelps and his teachings and followers, but, in this country, he and his group have the right to believe and preach as they wish.