Faith healing couple loose second child

[Akasa]

Yup, they refused to get medical care for their 8 month old and it died. They were directed by court to seek medical attention for their children or else go to jail, they violated it and now another child is dead. Hopefully they will go to jail now and their children will be put into homes where they can be cared for.

http://www.npr.org/blogs/thetwo-way/...g-medical-care

[Seifer]

T...Ten years probation? For involuntary manslaughter?! And they got to keep their other kids?!?!

There are people desperately trying to adopt children right now who would love to kick those two idiots in the teeth for needlessly killing two innocent children.

[MadMike]

What the fuck is wrong with people?

I have no problem with people using prayer to solve their problems, but they shouldn't be relying on prayer alone. As the saying goes, "God helps those who help themselves." Which means these so-called parents should have been getting their kids medical attention, and praying that it helps.

[Anthony K. S.]

Wow.

Every time I hear about a case like this, I think about an old minister's joke :


There was a man who lived in a small house in a deep valley.

One day, a great flood swept through the valley, and the man climbed up onto his roof to escape the rising waters.

He was a man of great faith, and he believed that if he prayed to the Lord to save him, his prayers would be answered. So he prayed, and prayed.

Soon, a boy in a canoe came paddling by. He saw the man and shouted, "Swim over and climb into my canoe, and I'll save you!"

But the man replied, "No, thank you. The Lord will save me."

Now, the water rose and covered the roof.

Then, two men in a motorboat came along. They spotted the man and shouted, "Swim over to our boat, and we'll save you!"

The man replied, "No, thank you. The Lord will save me."

The water now rose to the man's waist.

A short time later, a helicopter passed overhead. The pilot and his partner shouted at the man, "We'll throw down a ladder! Climb it, and we'll save you!"

And the man replied, "No, thank you. The Lord will save me."

Well, the water then rose above the man's head, and the poor man drowned.

But he was a good man, and he went to Heaven. And when he got there, he went to see the Lord and said, "Lord, I did everything just the way you said I should! Why didn't you save me from the flood?"

And the Lord looked at him incredulously and said, "Why didn't I save you?! I sent you a canoe, I sent you a motorboat, and I sent you a helicopter! What were you waiting for, a flaming chariot?!"


It's an old joke, and it's intended to make people laugh, but it also carries an important moral for people of faith.

God answers prayers in many different ways, and not always in the way we expect.

Sadly, I'm inclined to believe that this couple's prayers were answered - in the form of a hospital, doctors, and medicine that could save their children's lives.

But this couple was just too stubborn and rigid to realize it.

[Panacea]

I have no problem with people using prayer to solve their problems, but they shouldn't be relying on prayer alone. As the saying goes, "God helps those who help themselves." Which means these so-called parents should have been getting their kids medical attention, and praying that it helps.

Absolutely.

Healing comes in many forms, and modern medicine is an important method we can access.

Faith healing is asking God to solve your problems for you. It doesn't work that way. God expects us to take action on our own. Faith can be a powerful part of the equation. But it doesn't replace medication.

I hope those parents never get custody back. They are a danger to their own children.

[smileyeagle1021]

I remember an episode of Family Guy addressed exactly this issue, a couple of faith healers refused to have their child receive any treatments for lukemia and finally Louis looses it and yells at them "how do you know that the chemical properties of chemotherapy drugs that make them cure the disease weren't God's answer to your and other's prayers?"
I used to have a coworker who was big on prayer cures all, and I told him point blank, if God had meant for people to die of infection, he wouldn't have made a universe where the chemical properties of anti-biotics work to destroy infection, if He meant for people to die of cancer he wouldn't have created a universe where the chemical properties of chemotherapy and physical properties of radiation didn't cure cancer, if he meant for us to suffer and die, He wouldn't have allowed us free will to come up with treatments.

[Nekojin]

My post on Ars Technica regarding this:

The line should be drawn at harm to someone other than the person doing the deciding. Children aren't objects to be moved around in the parents' board game of life, they're players in their own right, even if they don't understand the rules yet.

In other words - they can faith heal themselves all they want, and Darwin themselves out of existence as a result. They don't get to choose the same for children who don't have enough maturity/education/etc to make the decision for themselves. They're obligated, legally and morally, to put the child's welfare ahead of ideology. Which is why there's a trial over this.

[fireheart17]

My post on Ars Technica regarding this:

The line should be drawn at harm to someone other than the person doing the deciding. Children aren't objects to be moved around in the parents' board game of life, they're players in their own right, even if they don't understand the rules yet.

In other words - they can faith heal themselves all they want, and Darwin themselves out of existence as a result. They don't get to choose the same for children who don't have enough maturity/education/etc to make the decision for themselves. They're obligated, legally and morally, to put the child's welfare ahead of ideology. Which is why there's a trial over this.

I could use the same argument for childhood immunisation. YES, there are children out there who cannot be immunised for medical reasons, but otherwise, you need a damn bloody good reason to not be immunising your child.

I've even posted a story on here before about a couple who were so anti-vaccine that they did not even allow their baby to receive Vitamin K at birth (which can be given orally or by needle, but if you go the oral route, it has to be done by the parents) and the baby died (as far as I'm aware, they either declined to go oral, it wasn't touted as an option to them or the baby died before the dosage was given)

[Seifer]

I could use the same argument for childhood immunisation. YES, there are children out there who cannot be immunised for medical reasons, but otherwise, you need a damn bloody good reason to not be immunising your child.

I've even posted a story on here before about a couple who were so anti-vaccine that they did not even allow their baby to receive Vitamin K at birth (which can be given orally or by needle, but if you go the oral route, it has to be done by the parents) and the baby died (as far as I'm aware, they either declined to go oral, it wasn't touted as an option to them or the baby died before the dosage was given)

Let me guess - they tried to sue the hospital for malpractice?

[Panacea]

I've even posted a story on here before about a couple who were so anti-vaccine that they did not even allow their baby to receive Vitamin K at birth (which can be given orally or by needle, but if you go the oral route, it has to be done by the parents) and the baby died (as far as I'm aware, they either declined to go oral, it wasn't touted as an option to them or the baby died before the dosage was given)

Oral vitamin K has to be given in more than one dose to be effective, meaning the parents have to give the 2nd dose. Compliance and accuracy are an issue, which is why IM is preferred: one and done.

But a nit picky point: Vitamin K is not a vaccine. It is a vitamin found in many foods, and produced by bacteria that live in the gut . . . bacteria the neonate has not developed yet. It is given to activate clotting factors, and lower the risk of hemorrhagic disease in the neonate. It is safe and effective, but there are nuts out there that proclaim risks that don't exist similar to those of the anti vaccine nuts.

[fireheart17]

Let me guess - they tried to sue the hospital for malpractice?

As far as I'm aware, there was an inquest but they persisted with the idea that the hospital did something wrong. Whether or not they sued for malpractice I have no idea, especially given that most malpractice cases don't even make the media.

[Panacea]

Let me guess - they tried to sue the hospital for malpractice?

Good luck with that. You can always sue but it actually has to be malpractice to prevail. Known complications of common medications don't count as malpractice: no medication, no treatment is 100% risk free.

To commit malpractice requires malice. For example, a doctor who insists on a medication that he knows the patient is allergic to when there's a safe alternative, but who doesn't order antihistamines and steroids to counter the effects of the predictable anaphalaxis, could be guilty of malpractice . . . especially if he didn't tell the patient was he was being given.

[s_stabeler]

I am reminded of a quote from Law&Order. ( it was a case where parents had refused treatment for their kid, who died. the cops charged them with manslaughter, IIRC.. The quote is from another member of the same church) " I pray for the spirit. For the body, I go to the doctor" ( the actual quote might be slighty different, but the idea is the same)

ultimately, I disagree with any religion that says you should avoid a certain medical treatment. ( Scientologists and psychiatry, IIRC Jehova's witnesses refuse blood transfusions) but if it's you deciding for yourself, I don't really care. but if you are deciding for somebody else ( POA or child) then you shouldn't impose your beliefs.

[AmbrosiaWriter]

@s_stabeler;

My favorite line was from a Law and Order: SVU case where the mother brain washed the child into believing that AIDS/HIV is a government conspiracy as is any vaccinations etc. etc.

At the end Stabler brought the boy to see another boy who nearly died because his parents refused to let him get treated by a doctor, telling him to "pray himself better." The boy says something along the lines of, "You know, my grandmother says, 'God created doctors too, and why would he give them to us if he didn’t want us to use them?' "

[Panacea]

ultimately, I disagree with any religion that says you should avoid a certain medical treatment. ( Scientologists and psychiatry, IIRC Jehova's witnesses refuse blood transfusions) but if it's you deciding for yourself, I don't really care. but if you are deciding for somebody else ( POA or child) then you shouldn't impose your beliefs.

Jehovah Witnesses will take some types of blood products; it's the red blood cells they object to. While I disagree with their interpretation of Scripture, the law is pretty clear when it comes to minors: if your kid needs a transfusion, the hospital will get a court order for one.