Arguing Atheism Frankly, but Respectfully

[Panacea]

Currently I'm participating in a discussion on CNN on an article about Pat Robertson's 10 (Demand)ments.

I consider Robertson to be a colossal dick, though CNN's moderators make it hard to say so. Like a lot of threads on religion, the comments quickly move away from a discussion of the actual article to the usual religious vs militant atheist picking at each other like kindergartners rants.

But one atheist made what I thought was a well reasoned, frank argument for both his position on things, while leaving room for mutual respect with the side he disagrees with. I thought it so well done, I wanted to share it here and get the thoughts of the forum.

I'm reposting this with permission, unedited from what he posted on CNN:

From Boston33



Like I said, this is once again a reply which is completely bereft of any sense of balance.

You may think religions are nonsensical. I, as an atheist myself, think that they are illogical.

But illogical or even idiotic DOES NOT equal evil and murderous.

Christianity - as say Buddhism - has done enormous good and a lot of evil too in this world. But they are a mixed bag and NOT equivalent to something that is purely 100% evil like the Taliban. Because NOTHING good has EVER come out of the likes of the Taliban or Al Shabab. Anyone who says the same about Buddhism or Christianity or Hinduism for example - that they are 100% evil - would be considered completely ignorant.

It would be like me not liking a socialist and saying "Good! I hope people equate socialism with the Nazis!" It is completely devoid of any sense of proportion or even a proper understanding.

Religion is illogical but there are deep reasons why humans have evolved to believe in a higher power. As I said above, I personally don't believe in one but there are few things as annoying to me as fellow atheists who are so damn SURE that the world would be better off without religion. It probably won't since religion will simply be replaced with some other form of worship which likely would be even worse.

Most such people have never made a serious attempt to study or ponder the origins or religion. Because it is obviously much easier to simply stop at the idea of a sky Daddy and laugh at these simplistic (and obviously rubbish) religious stories without delving deeper into the evolution of the human psyche.

Thoughts?

[Andara Bledin]

I believe it would be a much nicer world if more people from both sides could show half as much reflection and respect as this individual.

I appreciate that they point out the fact that the hatred from either side is built upon ignorance and broad-brushed overgeneralization.

I think if more people from either fringe would take more time to understand why their opposites choose to believe or not as they do, they'd reach a much more complete understanding than just a matter of proofs and hand-waving.

Of course, that also takes a lot more effort than just settling on "the world is black and white, and since I think X and I'm good (obviously), then anyone who thinks anything different must therefor be bad."

[D_Yeti_Esquire]

I think the last paragraph is a little flawed. I don't think it's about being easy or not, rather for most people it is not an effective use of time to question such things. Imagine the incredible amount of time some people allocate to answering unanswerable questions and ask what else they could have accomplished if they'd just stuck with the unprovable assumption they had and did something else instead. It is the philosopher type that tends to get mired in it, but there's a reason everyone is not that type.

Religion or supernatural belief is often just an easy way to go about your life. Hell, so is atheism if you start life with that premise because you're starting with it. You can make it hard, but it doesn't have to be. Frequently those that do are reacting to massive excess.

A lot of people question when they are exposed to massive amounts of guilt, shame, hypocrisy, or faced with bad choices such as "be christian or be gay." But if you just live your life and aren't in conflict and your faith goes no further than just believing in something, there really is no reason to question outside of the thought exercise. And why do that when you could be improving yourself in your job, your hobbies, or your relationships? Does it necessarily help you personally? Not really.

[Gravekeeper]

Religion or supernatural belief is often just an easy way to go about your life. Hell, so is atheism if you start life with that premise because you're starting with it. You can make it hard, but it doesn't have to be. Frequently those that do are reacting to massive excess.

While I have no doubt this is the case for some people, its impossible to ascertain whether it occurs "often" or not. Yes, Christianity in its most basic form is comparatively "easy" as you get a pretty clear set of rules. But anyone that claims something like Buddhism is an easy way to go about your life is crazy. Even just missionary sects like Mormons or JWs that's not exactly easy at that point.

The fact of the matter is that 9 times out of 10 if someone is very religious, its because their parents gave them that religion. Then their level of education and/or exposure to other people's and culture's typically determines whether or not they change their religious beliefs later in life.

I would say its on the rare side for someone in their adult life to pick a religion just because its easy.

Religion ( and indeed anything ) becomes a problem when the entire generational cycle is self contained with no exposure to the outside world. Hence the problem with social conservative Christians in the US. Small, isolated towns in the south. You get raised steeped in Jesus and you never set foot outside of your town to learn anything else. So you pass it on to your kids as well. You don't say or do anything that's socially, politically or religiously outside of the town's beliefs because everyone knows everyone in town and they'll shun your ass.

[Kheldarson]

Religion ( and indeed anything ) becomes a problem when the entire generational cycle is self contained with no exposure to the outside world. Hence the problem with social conservative Christians in the US. Small, isolated towns in the south. You get raised steeped in Jesus and you never set foot outside of your town to learn anything else. So you pass it on to your kids as well. You don't say or do anything that's socially, politically or religiously outside of the town's beliefs because everyone knows everyone in town and they'll shun your ass.

THIS^

It's closed-mindedness that gets humans in trouble more often than not. For a non-religious example, here in my state, there's a bumper sticker that drives me NUTS.

"Support Coal or sit in the dark."

It's usually accompanied by other religious bumper stickers, but I have yet to meet a coal supporter who can articulate why coal is healthy for our state's economy without them going "just because". Just because WHY??

No matter what your view on religion is, you should be able to at least understand the other side of the argument. Heck, it's entirely possible that without the faith I was given/exposed to at a young age that I would've been an atheist. Instead, I read books on apologetics and learn the history of my Church and her dogma so I can understand where she's coming from and understand the objections that get raised.

Cuz nobody likes being told "You're wrong...just because."

[Panacea]

Religion or supernatural belief is often just an easy way to go about your life. Hell, so is atheism if you start life with that premise because you're starting with it. You can make it hard, but it doesn't have to be. Frequently those that do are reacting to massive excess.

I disagree. Oh, sure, if you give the matter no thought at all I suppose it can be "easy." But it's one thing to say you are a Christian (I'll stick to that since I'm less familiar with other faiths), and another thing to actually walk the walk. Christ shows us time and again just how difficult it is to be a follow of Jesus; the Gospels are replete with examples.

Now, while I was agnostic for a good period of my life, I've never claimed to be an atheist so my thoughts here might not be true for some. But I am not so sure it is any easier to be an atheist. The connection to the spiritual gives us a connection to something that is larger than ourselves, and a sense of continuity with the universe once we die . . . in our full conscious selves, not in terms of mere matter and energy.

Atheists don't have that connection (and may not care). But some do care about it. I see this in people who go for cryonics: the cryonicists that I've talked to on the Net are deathly afraid of death, and go to great lengths to try and preserve themselves past the normal span of human life in the (in my opinion vain) hope that technology will give them a second shot at life and immortality. I think that's more than a little wacked. I don't think it's easy for them.

A lot of people question when they are exposed to massive amounts of guilt, shame, hypocrisy, or faced with bad choices such as "be christian or be gay." But if you just live your life and aren't in conflict and your faith goes no further than just believing in something, there really is no reason to question outside of the thought exercise. And why do that when you could be improving yourself in your job, your hobbies, or your relationships? Does it necessarily help you personally? Not really.

I don't think it is true that there's no reason to question your faith unless you are faced with a conflict within the faith such as homosexuality or bad choices. It is healthy to question your faith, even when things are going well, because questioning can strengthen and lead to greater faith. Personally, I think everyone should ask themselves questions about what they believe, whether they think they have a reason to or not. But complacency is a problem with human beings and most people are too complacent about what they believe, no matter what that belief system is.

While I have no doubt this is the case for some people, its impossible to ascertain whether it occurs "often" or not. Yes, Christianity in its most basic form is comparatively "easy" as you get a pretty clear set of rules.

Not really. If it were really that easy, Christians would not have spent 2000+ years arguing about what it means to be a Christian.

The fact of the matter is that 9 times out of 10 if someone is very religious, its because their parents gave them that religion. Then their level of education and/or exposure to other people's and culture's typically determines whether or not they change their religious beliefs later in life.

Well, that's certainly true.

I would say its on the rare side for someone in their adult life to pick a religion just because its easy.

And that's true as well. Nothing about my conversion to Catholicism was easy, and I'm still adjusting to the changes. I was 34 when I first considered the conversion, and 48 when I finished the process.

Religion ( and indeed anything ) becomes a problem when the entire generational cycle is self contained with no exposure to the outside world. Hence the problem with social conservative Christians in the US. Small, isolated towns in the south. You get raised steeped in Jesus and you never set foot outside of your town to learn anything else. So you pass it on to your kids as well. You don't say or do anything that's socially, politically or religiously outside of the town's beliefs because everyone knows everyone in town and they'll shun your ass.

Oh, boy, don't I know this! You've just described most of the small town people I live around. These are the same people who get all pissy because someone complains about the Christian flag flying over a veterans cemetary, or the Christian invocations before county commissioner meetings. They simply do NOT understand why what they are doing is wrong.

The folks who do the complaining get death threats over it.

[Gravekeeper]

Not really. If it were really that easy, Christians would not have spent 2000+ years arguing about what it means to be a Christian.

That is entirely the fault of poor documentation when it came time to write the user manual. All of the arguments are over what was intended or how something was translated. If what was intended had been properly documented there wouldn't be much of a problem.

However, the preface gives you a pretty straight forward list. Here's 10 things you shouldn't do. Period. Where it runs into trouble is with everything else that falls outside of those 10. As the documentation at that point is pretty lackluster. But still, if you can follow those 10, you're doing good.

Now compare that to something like Buddhism. There is no way I can explain Buddhism to you in a 10 point list of rules. There are several concepts I would have to explain before I can even begin to go into Buddhist version of the "commandments". Even then, the closest thing Buddhism has to the Commandments covers thought, speech and action. Buddhism is not suppose to be user friendly.

Hinduism? Not much better.

Islam? Now things get interesting. Islam is very detailed because Islam was written first hand by its originator. Its like if the Bible had been written by Jesus himself. As such, while being a similar religion to Christianity, it is much more detailed in the specifics of how to follow it.

[Panacea]

In the case of Christianity, part of the problem is the instruction manual has been tampered with. In some cases unintentionally, such as when a scribe mistranslated a word, and in other cases intentionally.

There is ample evidence that scribes in ancient times added verses to books in the Bible, or changed words, in order to make the Bible say what they wanted it to say. This is particularly true with the Letters of Paul. Paul was an authority, and everyone wanted Paul to take their side, especially on the Orthodox vs Gnostic question.

The Orthodoxs who wanted Pauls letters to support their view (when in reality he predates the whole argument) were the ones who slipped in verses like the one commanding women to be silent in church; it is easy to spot because it runs counter to his usual tone, turn of speech, style, and approach.

It's why I, along with many Christians, are careful about relying on literal interpretations of the Bible. Much of it was meant to be taken metaphorically in the first place.

I view the Bible in terms with the commandment "love one another," and focus on the main messages of love and reconciliation, and developing my personal relationshp with God. It makes it much easier to deal with the passages that were probably tampered with.

Of course, it does add confusion from time to time, leaving me to struggle with some issues, no question.

[D_Yeti_Esquire]

I disagree. Oh, sure, if you give the matter no thought at all I suppose it can be "easy."

That's what I'm saying and you're disagreeing with it. Whatever your default belief system is, if there is no need to question it, it is easy. Either follow it or don't, but those are very easy options. That is a far less confusing question than, "which path should I take and how do I value the act of faith?"

That said, I'm saying it on a site where we debate everything and I can count on 10 times out of 10 that if I see Gravekeeper quoting me, I'm about to see disagreement. Just out of sheer self-selection, we overrepresent people's need to debate these things.

Philosophical people and those prone to argument (in the scholastic sense) tend to mull over these topics. And we tend to get our heads twisted when we meet people who could not care less about analyzing their faith or lack thereof.

Personally, I think everyone should ask themselves questions about what they believe, whether they think they have a reason to or not.

Maybe, maybe not. There's a decent debate to be had between what is a productive use of time and what isn't. If the ultimate divinity of Jesus Christ doesn't affect your day to day and you're a Christian, sure you can spend the time mulling it over but its really a non-factor. That's where I think people who are prone to debate overvalue the utility they get from it over someone that perhaps is just using Religion or an ethical code as a base blueprint (and not even the final say) for how they live their life.

My point remains, if you start with or without a religion and you don't spend time worrying about it, it remains the efficient option. That it's easy is a side effect and not why the appeal exists. You waste less time doing something that for a majority of the population is not productive.

Now, if you want to get into closed groups of people, persecution, cognitive rigidity and dissonance, that's fine but it is beyond the point I'm making. I'm talking on an individual level, not on a group level. In addition, encapsulated in the idea of excess which is being agreed with IS fundamentalism which is the kind of behavior which invites debate. Fundamentalism is not going about your life with a religious framework. It tends to be a socio-political orientation that seeks religious social change. But that's a world away from passively accepting faith or non-faith, remaining empathetic and ethical towards others.

[Nekojin]

However, the preface gives you a pretty straight forward list. Here's 10 things you shouldn't do. Period. Where it runs into trouble is with everything else that falls outside of those 10. As the documentation at that point is pretty lackluster. But still, if you can follow those 10, you're doing good.

Depending on how you read the New Covenant, there's either eleven rules, or just one. Jesus gave one new rule that stood over the others, via the New Covenant:

7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, there would have been no occasion to look for a second.

8 For he finds fault with them when he says: "Behold, the days are coming, declares the Lord, when I will establish a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah,

9 not like the covenant that I made with their fathers on the day when I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt. For they did not continue in my covenant, and so I showed no concern for them, declares the Lord.

10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, declares the Lord: I will put my laws into their minds, and write them on their hearts, and I will be their God, and they shall be my people.

11 And they shall not teach, each one his neighbor and each one his brother, saying, 'Know the Lord,' for they shall all know me, from the least of them to the greatest.

12 For I will be merciful toward their iniquities, and I will remember their sins no more."

13 In speaking of a new covenant, he makes the first one obsolete. And what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away.

There are, of course, many different views on that. Attempting to decide what is still law and what is discarded with the commencement of the New Covenant is a matter that top theologists argue on, so lay people obviously couldn't be trusted to come to the right answer...

[HYHYBT]

Forget the Ten. The two, love God with all you've got and love everyone as yourself, are hard enough. The second one even if you don't see any point in bothering with the first. One thing that's been especially bugging me lately is Christians who seem *happy* at the prospect of someone or other going to Hell... and that they see that, not as a failing, but as a virtue!

[Gravekeeper]

Forget the Ten. The two, love God with all you've got and love everyone as yourself, are hard enough. The second one even if you don't see any point in bothering with the first.

One: Universal Compassion. Both the easiest and the hardest.

One thing that's been especially bugging me lately is Christians who seem *happy* at the prospect of someone or other going to Hell... and that they see that, not as a failing, but as a virtue!

The problem is that this type of Christian is also the most vocal and most likely to be trying to control or force their beliefs on others through politics. Its the same problem Islam has, but to a lesser degree.

IE. You don't see another Christian standing beside that one going "Man, this guy is an asshole. Don't worry, we're not all like that."

Which is kind of ironic in the wake of 9/11 when people were blaming Islam for not "saying enough" against extremists. While conversely being perfectly fine staying mum on the yahoos in their own camp.

[protege]

The fact of the matter is that 9 times out of 10 if someone is very religious, its because their parents gave them that religion. Then their level of education and/or exposure to other people's and culture's typically determines whether or not they change their religious beliefs later in life.

Yep, my mother insisted that her children be raised Catholic. Never mind that my dad isn't Catholic. We didn't have the crucifix hanging everywhere at home, but it really should have been *my* choice, not hers. I hated having to dress up on Sunday, to hear the *exact* same stories...stories, which I'd already heard countless times at school. Did I mention that I went to a Catholic grade school? Then CCD started, and lasted until I graduated from high school. Again, not my choice--that shit was forced on me.

(At this point, I'm going to apologize in advance if I offend anyone. That's not my intent...)

By then, I guess I became "enlightened" a bit, and could see how things worked without the "guidebook." Religion was, to me, just another system of threats and control. Didn't help either that some of the various officials at school either got upset when I didn't fit into the mold of what they thought a Catholic should be, or screamed about how I'd "never amount to anything." Sorry, but fuck that shit.

That was probably about the time I began to question various beliefs, and some of the "proof" offered up by various teachers. I wasn't happy with some of their explanations--some entity creating everything in 7 days was a bit too "neat," I guess. I felt that it was a big fairy tale, in other words.

Religion ( and indeed anything ) becomes a problem when the entire generational cycle is self contained with no exposure to the outside world. Hence the problem with social conservative Christians in the US. Small, isolated towns in the south. You get raised steeped in Jesus and you never set foot outside of your town to learn anything else. So you pass it on to your kids as well. You don't say or do anything that's socially, politically or religiously outside of the town's beliefs because everyone knows everyone in town and they'll shun your ass.

Sadly, I know several small towns in SW PA that are like this. In most of them, the church is the social center. If you don't go to church, you're pretty much on your own. You're not "shunned" but it does mean that you get seen as an "outsider." I got lucky when I was living in my grandmother's small town. Because my grandparents knew everyone, it was easy. People knew my family and were more accepting of me...even though I rarely went to church.

As for Grandma, even though she was a strict Catholic, she only had one rule. Just be a good person, and you'll get into Heaven. Even an agnostic as myself can handle that one

[Panacea]

One thing that's been especially bugging me lately is Christians who seem *happy* at the prospect of someone or other going to Hell... and that they see that, not as a failing, but as a virtue!

I know. I hate this as well. It's that kind of attitude that kept me out of church for YEARS. I had to finally meet religious people who were NOT that way to understand that not everyone who believes in God is a self righteous twit.

But the ones who are out there are loud enough that they sour everyone around them on faith . . . and then they don't understand why the nones are outnumbering the churchgoers.

Yep, my mother insisted that her children be raised Catholic. Never mind that my dad isn't Catholic. We didn't have the crucifix hanging everywhere at home, but it really should have been *my* choice, not hers.

I absolutely agree. Becoming a follower of Jesus is something that must be freely entered into. But if you were baptized, then she had a duty to give you religious instruction. Unfortunately, many parents (of a wide variety of faiths) interpret that to mean "believe or else." And that's sad.

Y I hated having to dress up on Sunday, to hear the *exact* same stories...stories, which I'd already heard countless times at school. Did I mention that I went to a Catholic grade school? Then CCD started, and lasted until I graduated from high school. Again, not my choice--that shit was forced on me.

I can see it gets a little old. Fortunately, many churches are getting away from the Sunday best for church model. They just want you in church! I usually dress in jeans and a nice shirt, but I only dress up if I'm participating in a formal rite of some sort (like when I participated in Holy Thursday services and carried the Oil of the Catecumen).

Y(At this point, I'm going to apologize in advance if I offend anyone. That's not my intent...)

You're not offending me. I'm a Catholic convert: I went into the Church because I wanted to, not because anyone forced me to.

YBy then, I guess I became "enlightened" a bit, and could see how things worked without the "guidebook." Religion was, to me, just another system of threats and control. Didn't help either that some of the various officials at school either got upset when I didn't fit into the mold of what they thought a Catholic should be, or screamed about how I'd "never amount to anything." Sorry, but fuck that shit.

It doesn't have to be thought control, although sometimes it ends up that way. I find it very sad when someone in authority has to resort to that model to gain conformity. I feel sorry for that person, and even sorrier for the people he's effecting because it often backfires.

YThat was probably about the time I began to question various beliefs, and some of the "proof" offered up by various teachers. I wasn't happy with some of their explanations--some entity creating everything in 7 days was a bit too "neat," I guess. I felt that it was a big fairy tale, in other words.

This is why it is dangerous to interpret Scripture literally. The Bible is not a science textbook. We know the universe wasn't created in 7 days. It's metaphor; a way for primitive people to understand their world. I don't think God could explain the Big Bang to primitive people, do you? So the tradition that developed in Genesis was the best understanding that people could develop based on what they knew about God at the time. God doesn't change, but people do: our understanding of him has changed drastically over the centuries.

YSadly, I know several small towns in SW PA that are like this. In most of them, the church is the social center. If you don't go to church, you're pretty much on your own.

Yeah, I've gotten that as well, back when I was an agnostic. I still get it now that I'm Catholic . . . I'm not the "right" religion for many people in this heavily Baptist part of the country . . . but I get it the worst from a dear friend who is an atheist. I have to grind my teeth sometimes when she says some very insensitive things about my faith to me . . . and says them laughing.

YAs for Grandma, even though she was a strict Catholic, she only had one rule. Just be a good person, and you'll get into Heaven. Even an agnostic as myself can handle that one

Your Grandma has it right. She's my kinda gal.

[protege]

But the ones who are out there are loud enough that they sour everyone around them on faith . . . and then they don't understand why the nones are outnumbering the churchgoers.

Very true. Unfortunately, most of the Christians I've met locally...have come across as smug, anal-retentive douchebags. They do more harm than they can understand--who wants to hang around with *that?*

Unfortunately, many parents (of a wide variety of faiths) interpret that to mean "believe or else." And that's sad.

I only got confirmed (8th grade), was so I wouldn't have to deal with my mother's guilt trips, which I would have never heard the end of. I mean, she hates my paternal grandmother for not taking her to the hospital some 30 years ago. (I don't know why, nor do I really care. It was 30 years ago...and she needs to get over it.) I had a feeling that if I didn't go through with confirmation...I would have had to hear about it for the past 23 years

It doesn't have to be thought control, although sometimes it ends up that way. I find it very sad when someone in authority has to resort to that model to gain conformity. I feel sorry for that person, and even sorrier for the people he's effecting because it often backfires.

They had some strange ideas about education. Anything seen as contrary towards Catholicism (or religion in general) was not permitted in the classroom. I can understand why to a point...but restricting everything gave a rather sanitized view of things.

This is why it is dangerous to interpret Scripture literally. The Bible is not a science textbook. We know the universe wasn't created in 7 days. It's metaphor; a way for primitive people to understand their world. I don't think God could explain the Big Bang to primitive people, do you? So the tradition that developed in Genesis was the best understanding that people could develop based on what they knew about God at the time. God doesn't change, but people do: our understanding of him has changed drastically over the centuries.

I always understood the Bible as being a way that people could attempt to understand the things around them. Unfortunately, that place had a few people that insisted it was all true...because it said so. Nice circular logic there

I have to grind my teeth sometimes when she says some very insensitive things about my faith to me . . . and says them laughing.

Been there, done that too. I actually dated a Pentecostal girl for a few years. We got along great, mainly because she understood *why* I was the way I am...and why I wasn't into religion. Keep in mind that the Pentecostals in that area were called "holy rollers" for good reason. We got along the way we did, mainly because we didn't try to convert each other.

Her mother on the other hand, seemed to have a problem with my lack of religion. She never said a thing about it to me, but I heard about it from my then-gf, common friends, etc. Apparently, I hung out with Satan since my family lived in a bigger house, I had a better job, better car, etc. Uh no, bitch. my family and I have those things because we *worked* for them. We didn't spend hours in church praying for them

Your Grandma has it right. She's my kinda gal.

My maternal grandmother would have appreciated that. She was the type that everyone loved instantly. Sadly, she passed away in 2010 after a stroke