Reincarnation?

[Flyndaran]

Why should I NOT care about dying and ceasing to exist?
The idea that someone cares so little for themselves that dying itself would not be a horrific tragedy, confuses me.

I have a strong urge to survive. Wanting to survive even after I die is simply the logical outgrowth of knowing that I can't live forever.
That fact pisses me off more than anything or anyone else in this reality.
I kind of wish that I could beleive in an afterlife if ofr no other reason than so I don't waste any time angry at the inevitable.
Sometimes a comforting lie is, if not best, then at least painless.

[Boozy]

I'd think that ceasing to exist is a pretty traumatic concept, for most people.

Worse for some would be the knowledge that their loved ones would cease to exist.

[AFPheonix]

Maybe I'm odd, but I find it kind of comforting. After all, once I'm dead and gone, I'm not going to know any better anyways. And for loved ones, I know that they are not feeling pain or suffering anymore. I derived great enjoyment with them during my time with them in this existence, and I get to keep that experience with me until my time is done, too.
I think of it as going to sleep and never waking again. It doesn't sound too unpleasant all in all.

As for going and being evil, why would I want to do that? Why can I not desire my reward here and now, when I know that I exist? It feels good to do good for others. I rather enjoy that feeling.

I guess I'm arguing more for enjoying and living for the time we know we have now, this existence we have, rather than worrying about some possible post-death experience that may never come. When it's done, it's done.

[Boozy]

I guess I'm arguing more for enjoying and living for the time we know we have now, this existence we have, rather than worrying about some possible post-death experience that may never come.

I can completely agree with that.

But that does bring up another reason why belief in the afterlife is so appealing to some people. Some people don't enjoy the life they have, and some don't see any hope of it getting better. I don't feel much sympathy to someone whose life is what they've made it, but I do feel empathy to those who live a hard and painful life as sustenance farmers in a corrupt, diseased, and war-torn country. For the millions of people who are trapped in this kind of life, hope for something better after death might be all they have, and praying to God might be all they can do for their children.

Atheism could almost be considered a luxury of the West.

[AFPheonix]

I can completely agree with that.

But that does bring up another reason why belief in the afterlife is so appealing to some people. Some people don't enjoy the life they have, and some don't see any hope of it getting better. I don't feel much sympathy to someone whose life is what they've made it, but I do feel empathy to those who live a hard and painful life as sustenance farmers in a corrupt, diseased, and war-torn country. For the millions of people who are trapped in this kind of life, hope for something better after death might be all they have, and praying to God might be all they can do for their children.

Atheism could almost be considered a luxury of the West.

Perhaps. I wasn't really thinking of them when I posted initially, I was thinking of people I grew up in the church with, who obviously are not subsistence farmers, and yet they have such fear of what could happen to them in the next life they seem to forget about this life.
That I just flat out don't comprehend.

[Flyndaran]

A tiny instant of life versus an eternity of "place religious belief here" should preoccupy believers. It would be irrational to live life lazily and even slightly selfishly if you truly beleived that your actions mattered for freakin' eternity.

I sure as heck wouldn't have eaten so many cinnamon rolls if I really thought that a supreme deity looked down on my gluttony and frowned. The immediate effects for atheist me are simply extra calories and sugar rush , which I gladly accepted for the tasty gain.

I don't want to exist forever because I'm arrogrant, consider myself any more special than the other 6.X billion people. I want to exist forever, because I am me, and demand to continue to be me.
I will never accept death and non-existance. I will be on my deathbed pissed off fighting for that last breath. I know I have limits where non-existance might be better than continued existance, and that thought frightens me slightly more than non-existance itself.

I may lack the "god module", but I got double hlepings of survival instinct.

[Slytovhand]

Flyn, regarding your 'logical conclusion' regarding reincarnation - there is one flaw. For those of us who do really believe it, then it's not a matter of 'blaming another life', because, in (our) reality, it is the same individual living throughout those lives - just in another meat-sack. Our past lives are just as relevant, and we are just as responsible, for all the years we are alive this time around. The 'blame' is only as valid as eating all those cinnamon rolls eariler in this life is.

A question for all those freaked out about the whole death thing - regardless of what your take on it is. Have any of you found a point in your life where you truly felt at peace?

In my world view (and I need to stress the 'my' bit), the only thing that really is scared is the ego - it can't possibly deal with not being around. Once you (the real you) gets past the ego, then a lot of things that seem important no longer are.

Oh, Flyn, one other question regarding what you said... does the thought that you didn't actually exist before this life also scare you??

[Flyndaran]

Flyn, regarding your 'logical conclusion' regarding reincarnation - there is one flaw. For those of us who do really believe it, then it's not a matter of 'blaming another life', because, in (our) reality, it is the same individual living throughout those lives - just in another meat-sack. Our past lives are just as relevant, and we are just as responsible, for all the years we are alive this time around. The 'blame' is only as valid as eating all those cinnamon rolls eariler in this life is.

Then no on is innocent.
If true, then not even the kindest toddler has an uncheckered past.
But this is really two issues: reincarnation and karma.

I like the idea of reincarnation as a kind of magic continual life do over, but the idea of karma offends me. I am me. I am responsible for what I do. Even if some atom sized speck of eternality that exists within me was once withing Hitler, that in no way tarnashes my name.

A question for all those freaked out about the whole death thing - regardless of what your take on it is. Have any of you found a point in your life where you truly felt at peace?

Hee. I've had a crippling anxiety problem for nearly my whole life. Peace is not something I'm allowed.... in this life at least.
I don't care how comfortable I am at any moment. I don't want to die. My survival instinct and personal ethical obligation to continue life is VERY strong. No philosophy could change that. Only escape from horrific pain and suffering could ever make me even consider the option that non-existance would be better than gasping for just one more breath.

In my world view (and I need to stress the 'my' bit), the only thing that really is scared is the ego - it can't possibly deal with not being around. Once you (the real you) gets past the ego, then a lot of things that seem important no longer are.

Oh, Flyn, one other question regarding what you said... does the thought that you didn't actually exist before this life also scare you??

The ego, in other words, me. Of course it's me that doesn't want to die.

That last is a nonsense question. For I to feel anything I must exist. I exist now and want to continue to exist. The idea that I won't exist forever pisses me off more than just about anything else in existance.

[Slytovhand]

As you said, reincarnation and Karma are 2 issues. I believe in reincarnation (d'uh!), but not Karma (at least, not in 1 sense - and that sense is usually a mis-interpreted version of Karma).

Karma is simply what physicists have told us - there are causes and effects, every action has a consequence. Where I don't believe in Karma is that these effects or consequences have a moral implication. I don't believe in 'you've done bad things, bad things will come back on you'. Rather, 'things happen. They lead to other things. How you interpret them depends on your perspective'.

If, perchance, you were Hitler, would that really matter in the here and now? Can leopards change their spots? Do people change? Whether you were Hitler, or Madame Curie, in a past life shouldn't really affect how you choose to act in this life... other than knowing that when you were a slave, it sucked, so try not to be a nasty 'master' in this life.

Peace is an internal thing - a state of mind and emotion. Are you aware that Buddhist monks (I forget which sect) have someone give them a mighty good whack with a bamboo staff when they are getting distracted... to the point that the student actually requests the whacck to help them meditate?


As for the 'ego' bit, in my world view - no, the ego and the 'person' are 2 seperate entities. The spirit - that which continues on after body death - has no fear of body death, as it knows it will continue on afterwards. The ego, on the other hand, has no such concept of life after death, thus it 'lives in fear' of ending. Which has a nice practical application - no matter how shitty your life, you still try desperately to hang on to it - thus making a person live longer to achieve things. After all, if we didn't have that, and had knowledge of said LAD, then anytime things got 'too bad', we'd just top ourselves and think 'meh, I'll come back and get it right next time'.

[Flyndaran]

As you said, reincarnation and Karma are 2 issues. I believe in reincarnation (d'uh!), but not Karma (at least, not in 1 sense - and that sense is usually a mis-interpreted version of Karma).

Karma is simply what physicists have told us - there are causes and effects, every action has a consequence. Where I don't believe in Karma is that these effects or consequences have a moral implication. I don't believe in 'you've done bad things, bad things will come back on you'. Rather, 'things happen. They lead to other things. How you interpret them depends on your perspective'..

Ouch. I really don't like sciences getting taken into philosophocal or religious discussions. Karma is only cause and effect through the lens of reincarnation. We all know that cruelty can get rewarded and kindness punished in the span of a single lifetime. Physics would demand that karma work throughout eternity, not only get slapped on in between lives.

As If, perchance, you were Hitler, would that really matter in the here and now? Can leopards change their spots? Do people change? Whether you were Hitler, or Madame Curie, in a past life shouldn't really affect how you choose to act in this life... other than knowing that when you were a slave, it sucked, so try not to be a nasty 'master' in this life.time'.

I'm not even talking about whether my past life's personality would alter the genetics and enviromental aspects of my present life's personality.
I was talking about karma. Karma would punish me today no matter how good I was, because I "needed" to burn off the sins of "my" past.

Peace is an internal thing - a state of mind and emotion. Are you aware that Buddhist monks (I forget which sect) have someone give them a mighty good whack with a bamboo staff when they are getting distracted... to the point that the student actually requests the whacck to help them meditate?

I believe that it was the researcher that asked to be treated like a normal student for the exercis that asked for the whack. That whack if not gentle. It's because that when meditating, even the experienced often fall asleep.

I understand the need for times of relaxation. My anxiety condition makes it a little more necessary than it is for the average person.

I define your concept more as contentment than peace. We can expereince it accidentally, or after a period of very hard work. Nice, but not absolutely necessary to a happy and fullfilling life. A bit necessary for me, anxiety you know. Even the best medicine needs behavioral help, don't you know.

As for the 'ego' bit, in my world view - no, the ego and the 'person' are 2 seperate entities. The spirit - that which continues on after body death - has no fear of body death, as it knows it will continue on afterwards. The ego, on the other hand, has no such concept of life after death, thus it 'lives in fear' of ending. Which has a nice practical application - no matter how shitty your life, you still try desperately to hang on to it - thus making a person live longer to achieve things. After all, if we didn't have that, and had knowledge of said LAD, then anytime things got 'too bad', we'd just top ourselves and think 'meh, I'll come back and get it right next time'.

As a "rationalist" atheist, I don't believe in spirits, so to me the ego is everything that I am and ever will be. I have no definitional need for a spirit to explain my nature, odd behavior, or any other aspect of myself.

I sometimes wish I could believe in some form of afterlife. It seems so "peaceful" and comforting. I just can't.
I honestly try to understand others' beliefs. It's just sometimes it feels like a born blind person trying to understand what colors really are and why people like or dislike certain ones.
I wish you the best of luck and hope with your personal worldviews.

[Boozy]

I've always liked the idea of reincarnation. As in, "If at first you don't succeed, try again."

I can't believe in it, given there's no evidence of it. But I could get into it, if I were a more religious-minded person. It seems more just than the Christian theory that you get one shot at life (even if it's a real short one) and then deemed worthy of an eternity in either heaven or hell.

[BlaqueKatt]

There are a plethora of people like Sly saying that they have memories/skills/etc that don't belong to them.

one of my friends explained that to me from another belief system(can't remember which one)-it's not something from "another lifetime" it's more like Deja vu, where before your soul takes it's body it sets up "signposts" or markers if you will to let you know or be aware that you are on the right pathway to achieve the goals you are supposed to in life. Take that for what you will-he was a very strange person.

[Slytovhand]

Ouch. I really don't like sciences getting taken into philosophocal or religious discussions. Karma is only cause and effect through the lens of reincarnation. We all know that cruelty can get rewarded and kindness punished in the span of a single lifetime. Physics would demand that karma work throughout eternity, not only get slapped on in between lives.

That sounds like a misinterpretation of the 'karma' word. I don't recall anywhere that it says it only works between lives.

For me, I loathe that science, philosophy and religion can't meet and discuss intelligently. Otherwise, they end up as gobbledigook. Religion becomes wishful thinking, philosophy becomes navel gazing, and science blind. Just my opinion...

I'm not even talking about whether my past life's personality would alter the genetics and enviromental aspects of my present life's personality.
I was talking about karma. Karma would punish me today no matter how good I was, because I "needed" to burn off the sins of "my" past.

Depends on your interpretation of karma. That's the sort of interpretation I was talking about that I don't get. It would suggest an end purpose of 'goodness' - which to me would mean a lack of balance in the end.

I believe that it was the researcher that asked to be treated like a normal student for the exercis that asked for the whack. That whack if not gentle. It's because that when meditating, even the experienced often fall asleep.

Fall asleep, get distracted, lose focus, etc. No, it's not gentle. I have found, personally, that having something to 'get away from' can help to focus. Pain, noise, light etc....

I understand the need for times of relaxation. My anxiety condition makes it a little more necessary than it is for the average person.

I define your concept more as contentment than peace. We can expereince it accidentally, or after a period of very hard work. Nice, but not absolutely necessary to a happy and fullfilling life. A bit necessary for me, anxiety you know. Even the best medicine needs behavioral help, don't you know.

Not being happy with the quality of mediation cds on the market, and because of the various things I've done in that respect - all similar, but all with slight nuances that make significant differences, I made my own meditation cd with all the bits I wanted on it. It was supposed to be tested, and then go commercial, but my testers didn't bother to commit the way they needed to. If you'd like, I can send you a copy to try. There's nothing particularly esoteric about it...

As a "rationalist" atheist, I don't believe in spirits, so to me the ego is everything that I am and ever will be. I have no definitional need for a spirit to explain my nature, odd behavior, or any other aspect of myself.

Who was it that, in reference to God, said "I have no need of that hypothesis"? Kepler?? La Place?? Anyways, true, you may not need such an explanation, but that in itself doesn't mean that it doesn't happen (yeah, I know, Ockham...). It does, however, provide explanation for other situations.

I sometimes wish I could believe in some form of afterlife. It seems so "peaceful" and comforting. I just can't.
I honestly try to understand others' beliefs. It's just sometimes it feels like a born blind person trying to understand what colors really are and why people like or dislike certain ones.
I wish you the best of luck and hope with your personal worldviews.

[/quote]

Comes down to experience. Who knows, maybe you'll have such an experience that causes you to re-adjust your perceptions and interpretations (like any other person on the planet). But I get where you're coming from... I just can not get monotheism - as Boozy said - 1 (short) life to determine the rest of eternity.. I can't fathom that!


My worldviews are working quite well in my life (just that I'm not working in well with my worldviews )

[Flyndaran]

That sounds like a misinterpretation of the 'karma' word. I don't recall anywhere that it says it only works between lives.

But that's obviously false. The real world is full of evil people living long and well, and inocent children dying horribly.

For me, I loathe that science, philosophy and religion can't meet and discuss intelligently. Otherwise, they end up as gobbledigook. Religion becomes wishful thinking, philosophy becomes navel gazing, and science blind. Just my opinion...

If something is verfiable and follows rules, no matter how complex and seemingly arbitrary, then it IS science. Science is testing and explaining the universe. Philosophy is simply thinking about it. Religion is full of statements often IN SPITE of the universe disagreeing.
Of course, we humans being curious and not often willing to take no for an answer, will think, invents etc. everything we can't prove. As long as we willingly accept that it is only wild guesswork and drop it the moment it is disproven, it's ok as far as I'm concerned. I have guesses too, though mainly about probabilities for tomorrow being a good day etc.

Depends on your interpretation of karma. That's the sort of interpretation I was talking about that I don't get. It would suggest an end purpose of 'goodness' - which to me would mean a lack of balance in the end.

Too bad that all the prevailing scientific evidence shows that entropy wins in the end. The universal clock will stop, and that's all she wrote.

Fall asleep, get distracted, lose focus, etc. No, it's not gentle. I have found, personally, that having something to 'get away from' can help to focus. Pain, noise, light etc....

A mediational focus. Though pain is the method used by "cutters" to distract from depression and low self esteem.

Not being happy with the quality of mediation cds on the market, and because of the various things I've done in that respect - all similar, but all with slight nuances that make significant differences, I made my own meditation cd with all the bits I wanted on it. It was supposed to be tested, and then go commercial, but my testers didn't bother to commit the way they needed to. If you'd like, I can send you a copy to try. There's nothing particularly esoteric about it...

But what can official meditation do that straightforward relaxation "exercises" can't?

Who was it that, in reference to God, said "I have no need of that hypothesis"? Kepler?? La Place?? Anyways, true, you may not need such an explanation, but that in itself doesn't mean that it doesn't happen (yeah, I know, Ockham...). It does, however, provide explanation for other situations.

No explanation that can't be just as, if not, more easily explained with more mundane reasons.

Comes down to experience. Who knows, maybe you'll have such an experience that causes you to re-adjust your perceptions and interpretations (like any other person on the planet). But I get where you're coming from... I just can not get monotheism - as Boozy said - 1 (short) life to determine the rest of eternity.. I can't fathom that!

You get it; you just refuse to accept it. There's no reason for anything after death. I hate it too, but I can't refuse to accept things just because of feelings.
I honestly can't. Either way it is nice to converse with someone with radically different world views in civil tones. I have difficulty talking about this with other atheists.

My worldviews are working quite well in my life (just that I'm not working in well with my worldviews )

[Slytovhand]

But that's obviously false. The real world is full of evil people living long and well, and inocent children dying horribly.

Ah, obviously I should have stressed the only bit... Karma works (apparently) both in life and between life. Personally, I'd love to know the rules!!! (recalling, I'm not a great fan of it...)

Science, religion and philosophy. I don't propose to replace one with the other, only that they should have a lot more to do with each other. If not, you get the situation where they clash - and in monumentally stupid ways (ie the whole evolution debate). Similarly, since we're on the topic of meditation (and reincarnation), there's no reason really why science can't involve itself in such things. It has made inroads to realising what actually happens in the brain and body - to 'prove' that meditation does actually have real effects... rather than anecdotal. Reincarnation... it can either remain in the realms of the merely religious and never ever get tested and proven... or we can actually get people who do have 'memories' and see what details they come up with that can be factually proven to be correct and impossible for them to have knowledge of any other way.


Oh - for my pain I was only referring to when I had breaks, aches, etc... all accident induced (and then went healing... another topic).

My meditation cd... probably not a lot of difference - but there is a bit that makes it (hopefully) unique! (trade secret )

Now, while I certainly agree in Ockham's razor having it's place, it's not always accurate. Nor are 'all things equal'. While there may always be a mundane reason for everything, that in itself isn't 'proof'. I have images that may relate to past lives... do I just automatically discount them only because there may be a mundane explanation? That's where science needs to listen to religion


WHAT??? Are you calling me civil??? I'll have you, sunshine!!!! *biff biff kapow*





It's my philosophical attitude - try to listen and understand - makes discussion so much easier.