A recovering Christian (long, and a request for advice)

[siead_lietrathua]

I have read the Bible. Reading the Bible was one of the things which caused me to question my faith, and ultimately, doing that is what has sealed my former faith off to the point where I do not believe I could return to it and remain intellectually honest with myself.

they often say the fastest way to become an athiest is to sit and read the bible cover to cover.

that aside, i wanted to touch on the idea of goals. don't feel like you absolutely need a goal, and end point to your activities. you could try again on focusing finding things you simply gain enjoyment from. hobbies or activities that give you energy and happyness.
one thing i found from losing faith was that i lost the concept of life having a purpose (by which i mean a divinely controlled direction). once i lost the concept of purpose, it was hard to think of things in the concepts of "goals", since goals are often equated with purpose in themselves.

so that's the only advice i can give you ATM. just find something that makes you happy, be it reading or ponies or whatever. make it a starting point to find other things that make you happy. and eventually the happy things will generate their own purpose and activities to make life enjoyable.

in the end that's what matters. enjoying the lives we have

[fireheart17]

. I would also encourage you to learn something about other faiths: Islam, Buddhism, etc. They may not appeal to you at all, but the simple walking of the path will help you appreciate people of other faiths better, and also to better understand what it is you are looking for in your personal spirituality.

I am also another person who strongly advocates teaching people ABOUT a religion but at the basic level.

We had a talk at school recently about Rosh Hashanah. The kids had never heard of Judaism (NSW DOES have a Jewish population, but they're rare in the area I'm in) so we started talking about it. The first two responses I got mixed Jews up with Muslims. -.-

As part of our end of year celebrations, I'm going to talk to the kids about different holidays around this time of year such as Diwali and Hannukah. I don't know if there's a Muslim equivalent.

[Shangri-laschild]

I used to be very religious. Like tell all my friends, strongly believe, thought it was everything. At this point in my life I honestly don't know if I believe in anything spiritual or not. It sounds like a lot of your problem is you aren't sure who you are outside of the church which is something you have to figure out. Try new things like Raps suggested. Figure out who you personally are. Don't worry about looking for fulfillment and meaning at first. Just start with finding things that make you happy and go from there. For non religious reasons I've had to go through that as well and it makes a big difference. I know who I am now. I know what makes me happy, not just at that moment but what makes me content with everything. It's a process and it takes time but it is worth it.

[NorthernZel]

As part of our end of year celebrations, I'm going to talk to the kids about different holidays around this time of year such as Diwali and Hannukah. I don't know if there's a Muslim equivalent.

The Muslim equivalents would be the two Eid celebrations (Eid-ul-Adha following the yearly Mecca pilgrimage and Eid-ul-Fitr that marks the end of the Ramadan fasting month), but they do not occur at the same time of the year, since the Islamic calendar follows the Moon phases.

[Rageaholic]

I've been wanting to reply to this for a while, but I just didn't know what to say and didn't know if it would be helpful.

Basically, I feel the same way. My experience, even with the more liberal Christians, is that they think I just don't understand the faith. Either I'm listening to the extremists or had never been one to begin with.. They're probably right in that I don't understand the faith, but they really don't seem to understand how... strange the whole thing is (or at least pretend not to).

What I mean by strange is how priests and pastors talk about God as if he were right here watching us and should be number 1 in our lives.

Whaaaaaaa?

I had no problem believing in God or even believing that God could be everywhere, but since God seems to remain silent (or is just not speaking loudly enough to be heard), I can't really apply it to my life in the way that these priests talk about. To give an analogy, I believe President Obama exists. I know he exists because I see him on TV. But if someone came up to me and tried to convince me that they knew Obama personally, I would be suspicious. I would want some kind of confirmation and if they just dodged the question or made excuses, I would start to wonder if they weren't BSing me or were being deceived themselves.

It's like that with God and religion. The big difference is that I don't know if God exists because I've never seen or heard from him. So note only do I have to be extremely suspicious of the person claiming direct knowledge from God, but I have to be suspicious if this God character even exists. To keep myself from being confused, I have to just assume that if God exists, he's not calling me to do anything.

[Gravekeeper]

What I mean by strange is how priests and pastors talk about God as if he were right here watching us and should be number 1 in our lives.

Whaaaaaaa?

I had no problem believing in God or even believing that God could be everywhere, but since God seems to remain silent (or is just not speaking loudly enough to be heard), I can't really apply it to my life in the way that these priests talk about.

Welcome to Deism! Here's your club card. Pizza night is on Friday's. There's punch and sandwiches in the lobby.

Deism(tm): What The Founding Father's Really Believed.

[Rageaholic]

Deism has always made more sense to me than organized religion. The only things in church that has ever made sense to me in church was

a. The belief in God (I'm kind of agnostic now, but the idea of a neutral deity isn't that hard to digest).
b. Being good to others.

It's when the talk turns to relationships with God or Jesus that I'm "nope, out of here". Same thing with discussions of sexual morality or guilt trips to make you feel unworthy.

[Seshat]

SO BUT ANYWAYS, again, I need to get back on point. I know a lot of other people have very similar stories. I need to know - how do I regain control of my life? How did you manage to move on from this and find some meaning again? Obviously you can't fix my problems for me, but some advice or a starting point would be nice. Can anybody give me some guidance, some help, or some words of wisdom? I really need it. Thanks.

This post in a creation/evolution thread contains a summary of scientific method and scientific philosophy. It may give you .. hm. Not meaning, but a place to stand.

My father has a need to stand on the firm ground of 'I know'. He's Christian, and refuses to accept any possibility other than 'God created Life'. He knows it, and if I tried hard enough to shake him off that, I'd probably break him.

I stand on the shaky ground of 'This is the closest I've gotten to the truth so far'. Or maybe it's fairer to say 'I'm still looking'.
I'll be looking all my life. And that's FINE with me.

I'd prefer to be searching through the darkness of 'I don't know, let's find out' than to delude myself and stay still in the illusion that I somehow 'know'. Because I know that I DON'T know.
(If that insults anyone - sorry, you're probably like my father. And maybe you're right. Maybe you do know. But I don't, so please accept my need to search. And I'll respect your belief that you know.)


Jaden: I'm trying to become the best ME that I can be. This search is taking me down some dark places, sometimes quite scary ones. I have had to face my own anger, I have had to face the fact that I've hurt people, sometimes quite badly.

But by facing my own darknesses, I've become a better person, and a better me.

I've had to figure out my own axioms, my own 'right' and 'wrong'. I've found that giving myself a crash course on comparitive religion, followed by studying both spirituality and philosophy, has helped me see what other humans have already figured out.
Tip: Bill and Ted, in their Excellent Adventure, summarise most world religions quite well. "Be excellent to each other".

Anthropology is a good guide to being excellent to each other, btw. Learn how different cultures work, use the tools anthropology has to work out how YOUR culture works.

Courtesy is important to keeping society running smoothly, and at its most fundamental, it comes down to 'treat every person you encounter as an individual person who matters'.
It does NOT mean giving in to them, btw.
But it does mean that if you happen to notice a disabled person heading towards an escalator, and you're an able bodied person who can press the call button by taking two steps out of your way, doing so can mean so much to them that they remember the incident ten years later and are still grateful. (Because someone did that for me, and I still am.)
It means treating the checkout chick as a human being, not a robot. It means remembering that every car on the road (except the Google photo car) represents at least a driver, a person, and doing a dangerous and stressful task; so driving predictably will reduce their stress. (Also reduces yours!)


Find yourself some axioms. Axioms are not Truths, but they are ... hm. They're the bases on which you stand.

'We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal' <--- that's declaring an axiom.

In Australia, 'fair go, mate' is an axiom of the culture. It's difficult to define if you're not raised in it, but .. eh. It can probably be summarised as 'be excellent to each other', really.


How about this: until you develop an axiom of your own, start from 'be the best ME that I can be' - and start working out who that is.

The easier aspects to start with are 'what can I do well' and 'what do I like doing'.
In working on those, be aware that something you've had a lot of practice at, you'll seem to be better at. So if you try drawing or painting for the first time ever and you compare it to something you've been doing your whole life, yes, you'll think you suck at it. Compare it to something else that you're doing for the first time.


As something to think about, here are some of my core beliefs. My own axioms, if you will:

* If I benefit from something, I should contribute to it if I can.
This is true whether that something is nature, human society, or my family. Doesn't matter how big or how small.
However, it's modified by the fact that things are complex. I can accept welfare (disability pension) without paying tax (because I'm on the pension), but contribute to my nation's economy by helping people who are taxpayers live richer, fuller lives.
Sometimes I give away my art, or I counsel someone through a rough time, or I write fiction for them to read - or I write something like this!

* I am no greater, and no lesser, than anyone/anything else.
We all matter. Me, you, that grain of sand over there.
No, I don't know why I believe this. I just do. It appears to be a fundamental part of who I am. You might disagree. That's fine, it might not be a part of who you are.
Oh, and my ability to totally disagree with someone and still respect them is part of this. My ideas are no better (and no worse) than yours. Derives from the axiom.



I tried to think what else I might have as an axiom, but I think everything else - including 'be excellent to each other' - derives from those.
I benefit from society, ergo I should contribute to society. Being basically fair to people boosts society's welfare and productivity at minimal or no cost to myself, ergo, be excellent to each other.
I am no greater (and no lesser) than other members of society, ergo, be fair to people.

As for the 'being nice' part of 'be excellent to each other' - that seems to come from being me, not necessarily from the axioms.


Stuff like 'don't steal', 'don't murder', 'don't be an asshole' comes from the axioms as well. You can figure out your axioms by starting with things like those, and asking yourself 'WHY do I think I shouldn't steal?'

[Andara Bledin]

Can anybody give me some guidance, some help, or some words of wisdom? I really need it. Thanks.

Not sure if you're still asking for advice but I'll give it a go, nonetheless.

If you don't know where you're going, then stop, take stock, and find out where you are. Financially, socially, romantically, professionally, physically, etc. Make a list of everything about where and what you are right this moment.

Then take a look at that list and absorb what you've written. Are there any things there that you don't like or that you think are disappointing? Then those are your goals. Make it your goal to change those things about your life that you aren't satisfied with.

It doesn't have to be anything big, either. Sure, it could be something lofty like earn and save enough to buy a new car or to get a degree. Or it could be something minor, such as cooking more often, or learning to play an instrument.

One of my old goals was to smile at people more often. It's just a little thing, but it was something that I could do, and should do, and so it became something that I did.

Find those places where religion used to dictate your actions and consider the reasons why some actions were preferred over others. This will help you to understand whether those actions will be of any benefit to you moving forward, or if they should be discarded as irrelevant to your life. It's likely that most of what you would have done will be discarded, and that's ok. You just have to stop, take stock, and determine what action will take their place to benefit you, or others that you deem worthy.

And, one thing to remember about goals and working towards things: It's ok to slip. We're all human, and we'll all make mistakes, or get sidetracked, or backslide. The key is to acknowledge that this will happen and to not let it undermine your overall efforts.

Sure, you don't want to excuse every slide, but a typical ratio of 80/20 forward/back momentum is considered pretty normal and people who allow themselves those moments of weakness in moderation are also far more likely to achieve their goals.

[Seshat]

Random tips:

One of my mantras: 'Every day, learn something, teach something, make someone smile'.

Something I learned from my illnesses: quality of life is VITAL. If you don't have quality of life, you become mentally/emotionally/spiritually poisoned, something goes wrong in the core of your self, whatever that is. I can't explain it, it's just something that happened to me. I experienced it.
Figure out what makes it worth it to you to get out of bed, and make sure you spend some time every day that makes the day worth having lived. Can be as small as stopping to smell flowers, or as big as spending the whole day working with a charity. Doesn't matter, just do it.


You're probably accustomed to spending some time in prayer. Spend some time in meditation instead, before you completely lose the habit. Emptying your mind of intentional thought and allowing it to rest seems to be good for humans.

Some people use moving meditation: a Buddhist in the comparitive religion studies I did said "be aware of what you are doing. If you are sweeping, BE sweeping."
Runners and joggers often attain a meditative state, as well, especially if they're emptying their minds of everything except the awareness of their body movements and the sensations in their environment. (Running in a park where you don't have to worry about cars is probably an advantage in this case.)

I use stationary meditation. I find a body position where my body won't send me TOO many pain signals (I'm in constant pain), settle into it, and then clear my mind of conscious thought. This doesn't mean to think about nothing: watching restless thoughts come and go is part of it. My mind looooves to think, and stopping consciously thinking comes hard. I'm practiced at it, though.
Nuns achieve their meditation counting the rosary, many people study mandalas, some people have chants or listen to peaceful music: focussing on a single, simple thing can help many people achieve the desired state.


I'm not saying you must do this - not at all! But ten minutes to an hour of meditation every day appears to help many people, and even one session a week has benefits.